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Locked on 03/03/2008 9:42:54 AM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/22/2008 9:11:12 AM PST by Zakeet
It's hard to tell.
The best things we can do on FR is to NOT answer YOUR questions; while DEMANDING that OURS be answered.
--MormonDude(What was that you asked me?)
If he were a true prophet, he would need little in the way of defense. As far as the general subject of this thread, lets consider the true history of Smith and let the facts fall where they may:
1830
The polygamy of David and Solomon was "abominable" to the Lord (Jacob 2:24)
Bigamy was against the law in Illinois
1833
Smith marries his second wife (first after Emma)and begins mormon polygamy
1835
Doctrine and Covenants Section 101, Verse 4 (1835 edition)
"Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy; we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman but one husband; except that in the event of death when either is at liberty to marry again." (History of the Church, vol. 2, pg. 247)
1833-1844
Smith married at least 33 women, many of which were legally married to other men at the same time (bigamy and adultry).
1843
Smith's revelation, dated July 12, 1843, which became D&C 132
1844
Joseph Smith was indicted on charges of polygamy and adultery on May 23, 1844. In response, Smith flatly denied polygamy in a speech delivered on May 26, 1844, all the while married to at least 33 other women.
1887
Edmunds-Tucker Bill was passed which, among other things, "declared that marriages not publicly recorded were felonies
1890
President Woodruff produced his famous Manifesto, advising church members to obey the laws of the land as they related to polygamy. Thus the current prophet reversed the everlasting nature of D&C 132 which is still canonized today.
All that said, I do find it interesting that these same detractors never look to the fruit of the tree, as Jesus instructed us to do.
Yes, look at the fruit and in this case, listen to your prophets speaking about this:
"If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false…" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pages 188-189)
He broke the law of the land, he broke the law of the mormon church, participated in an act condemned by the bom - which he translated, committed adultry, he lied to a court of law, he had a revelation to support what he had been doing for the previous 10 years. While the church doctrine said that they followed the laws of the land, he continued to violate those laws. Eventually his revelation - D&C 132 is revoked, except that 132 has never been removed and has been followed by some mormons to this date. Show me where the facts of history are wrong, that Smith can be defined as anything but a deceiver? And the fruits today - abandoned boys, abused women, all because of Smith.
If one would look at historical facts, Joseph Smith was "besmirched" by his peers (from within the LDS Church and from those outside of the Church).
History shows that Smith, among his peers, had his chance to defend himself and his alleged prophetic calling....Any defense he could offer ended disasterously and was ineffective, at best.
All that said, I do find it interesting that these same detractors never look to the fruit of the tree...
In part, Jospeh Smith's fruit:
- multiple versions of the first vision
- missing gold plates
- the "Three Witnesses" (Harris, Whitmer, Cowdrey) of the alleged gold plates all left their association with Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church. Cowdrey joined a Methodist Church.
- fraudulent seer stones, which resulted in a Joseph Smith court conviction
- a proven fraudulent Reformed Egyptian language
- the missing Book of Lehi
- "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become."
- Mormon racism - black men were Satan's army in Heaven
- polygamy
- marriages to other mens' wives
- marriage to teenage wives
- many, many failed prophecies, including when Jesus Christ would return (Smith said that Jesus would return in 1890)
- fraudulent banking practices, which the Ohio legislature charged and fined Joseph Smith for
- a Mormon Temple Ritual that is, in part, borrowed from Masonic ceremonies (secret handshakes, secret names, ceremonial aprons, and etc.)
- the Kinderhook Plates, and further translation fraud by Joseph Smith
- Joseph Smith was jailed for treason against the state of Illinois
- Smith was accussed, by Mormons, of heresy, adultery and fornication
- Smith died shortly after uttering a Masonic distress call
:)
Well done list. I’m lifting it to feed to resty on occasion.
Please do...now and often.
:)
And your list is spot on... spot on half truths and sometimes outright misrepresentations. If you’ve been following these discussions for months, you would know that. Relying on lifted talking points long ago discredited will not help.
Someone with more time than I can “enlighten” you as to your list on by one. I’ve done that already, search my history if you must.
Typical non-reply reply.
But I will throw you a bone...
Let’s just do one, and a really bad one at that...
- Mormon racism - black men were Satan’s army in Heaven
If you knew about the LDS doctrine of the pre-existence, you would know that Mormons believe that all who were in "Satan’s army" as you say, in heaven were denied the right to come to earth to obtain a body. They were thrown out of heaven with those of God’s children who sided with him. How do you suppose we think blacks have bodies if they were denied that right in Heaven and were cast out with Lucifer?
I don’t need to continue, despite your baiting. It’s all been done before. The pattern is obvious.
Oh, and here's your reference to the above war in heaven, one of many.
Revelations 12:
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Good day, no sandboxes for me.
You said that it was always the same people...
And, apparently, "Mormon bashing" = the posting of historical fact.
And...Why is it "Mormon bashing" to ask questions relative to Mormon doctrine and to point out apparent contradictions in Mormon belief?
Quite often, I am asked difficult questions in regard to my Christian faith and I do not respond to the questioners with allegations of Christian-bashing. I do my best to give a Biblical response and a reason for my hope.
Mormons claim to have the truth, and that all other churches are corrupt, and yet when pressed on their claims of truth, they allege abuse or outright refuse to answer.
The possession of truth affords a reasonable and compelling response...the lack of truth results in accusations and non-response, which creates a credibility gap.
So...c'mon...lets reason together.
Unlike the other Mormon's on this thread, are you willing, and/or able, to answer a few direct questions?
1. What is salvation and how does a non-Mormon obtain it?
2. Does polygamous marriage, with teenage girls, constitute child abuse?
3. Did Joseph Smith commit child abuse in his polygamous marriages with teenage girls?
--MormonDude(You Gentiles NEVER learn; do you!?)
Only in your LDS member type minds.
Volumes of LDS spin does not equate to any discrediting at all.
No sandboxes? Bwahahahaha, apologists drop by and deposit the occasion smelly offering then claim they’re above it.
Oh, really?
Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes." LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 527
Do you know more than McConkie?
Oh, really?
Apostle Orson Pratt taught that some people don't receive an "honourable body" because they sided with the Devil in a previous life:
“At the time the devil was cast out of heaven, there were some spirits that did not know who had authority, whether God or the devil. They consequently did NOT TAKE A VERY ACTIVE PART ON EITHER SIDE, BUT RATHER THOUGHT THE DEVIL HAD BEEN ABUSED, AND CONSIDERED HE HAD RATHER THE BEST CLAIM TO THE GOVERNMENT. These spirits were not considered bad enough to be cast down to hell, and never have bodies; neither were they CONSIDERED WORTHY OF AN HONOURABLE BODY on this earth: but it came to pass that Ham, the son of Noah, saw the nakedness of his father while he lay drunk in his tent, and he with 'wicked joy,' ran like Rigdon, and made the wonderful disclosure to his brethren; while Shem and Japheth took a garment, with pity and compassion, laid it upon their shoulders—went backwards and covered their father,... The conduct of the former BROUGHT THE CURSE OF SLAVERY upon him, while that of the latter secured blessings, jurisdiction, power and dominion....Canaan, the son of Ham, received the curse; for Noah wished to place the curse as remote from himself as possible. He therefore placed it upon his grandson instead of his son. Now, it would seem cruel to force PURE celestial spirits into the world through the lineage of Canaan that had been cursed. This would be ill appropriate, putting the PRECIOUS and VILE together. But those spirits in heaven that rather LENT AN INFLUENCE to the DEVIL, thinking he had a little the best right to govern, but did not take a very active part any way were required to come into the world and take bodies information concerning the doctrine of pre-existence: “Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not in the ACCURSED lineage of Canaan; and hence the NEGRO or African race.” (Speech of Elder Orson Hyde, delivered before the High Priests' Quorum, in Nauvoo. April 27th, 1845, printed in Liverpool, page 30)
As to the racism part, is it really necessary to post all those awful quotes from Mormon prophets?
No worthless redirecting, I didn't bring that issue up. Go back to #1262 and address those issues that I did bring up. Thanks.
Arrrragh, tagged by the rascally MormonDude.
Don't perform the run away tactic like the other Mormons, sevenbak...
Stick around so that we can reason together.
Do you know more in regard to pre-existence than McConkie and Pratt? (you certainly posted as if you do)
And if, in part, Joseph Smith's fruit (prophecies) was not the genesis for the racism in the Mormon Church...what was?
Unlike the other Mormon's on this thread, are you willing, and/or able, to answer a few direct questions?
1. What is salvation and how does a non-Mormon obtain it?
2. Does polygamous marriage, with teenage girls, constitute child abuse?
3. Did Joseph Smith commit child abuse in his polygamous marriages with teenage girls?
ANSWER: (silence)
Apparently...not.
Just because we get tired of responding to people who bait us, doesn’t mean there aren’t answers.
I’ve already answered no. 1.
As for teen marriages, on those days, people got married younger. My great grandmother, not a polygamous wife, was 15 or 16. It was normal. Women not married by the age of 21 were considered old maids.
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