Posted on 02/22/2008 7:11:29 AM PST by Alex Murphy
SALT LAKE CITY ---- Last fall, the head of the Mormon church's Relief Society delivered a treatise on motherhood that equated nurturing with keeping a tidy house. Women in poor countries who dress their daughters in clean, ironed dresses, the speaker said, honor a sacred covenant.
Julie B. Beck's exhortation at the church's General Conference that Mormon women strive to be "the best homemakers in the world" did not go unanswered. More than 250 women signed an online rebuttal.
The exchange illustrates that while the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is years removed from open hostilities over feminism, passions still run high over the role of women in a patriarchal church.
No one can profess to know how women's issues will be handled by the successor to church president Gordon B. Hinckley, who died Sunday at 97.
But few expect major changes along the lines of opening the Mormon priesthood -- an office granted only to Mormon men ---- to women.
But women could still emerge as stronger voices of the church.
"My feeling is that things are not going to change much, that the church is going to keep its very conservative positions on women's roles," said Margaret Toscano, a self-described feminist activist who was excommunicated in 2000 and teaches language and literature at the University of Utah.
Although the church did not reveal why Toscano was excommunicated, she argued a historical precedence for women in the priesthood. She also promoted the concept of a "Mother God," a deity who was described in an early Mormon poem as a consort to God in heaven.
Today, Mormon feminism thrives in a different form. A blog called Feminist Mormon Housewives, for instance, calls itself as "a safe place to be feminist and faithful" and offers the protection of anonymity.
Toscano said Beck's 1950s vision of motherhood astonished many Mormon women who believed the church, while not encouraging career women, had at least acknowledged women could work and still be good mothers.
Beck was not available for interviews, church officials said. Other LDS women came to Beck's defense, and pointed out that her talk also made clear that wives are "in equal partnership" with their husbands.
The agency which Beck heads, the Relief Society, is one of three Mormon offices open to women. Billed as one of the world's largest women's groups, with 5.5 million members, it provides spiritual instruction to women and aids needy families, among other things.
Mormon women are increasingly visible in worship, often called upon to give the major talk during sacramental meetings, said Jan Shipps, an emeritus professor at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.
"Women can't be bishops, they can't be pastors, but they're much more visible and much more a part of leadership of local congregations than they were 30 years ago," said Shipps, a non-Mormon scholar of the faith.
Kim Farah, an LDS spokeswoman, said in a statement that women play an integral role in the church, from preaching to teaching to "sitting in council" with male priesthood leaders about running congregations.
"However, we believe that great happiness comes from our work in the home and that, regardless of individual circumstances, women have perhaps the greatest influence for good when it comes to the family," Farah said. "Personally, this gives me great peace, joy and self-esteem."
In a 1996 interview with CBS' "60 Minutes," Hinckley said, "In this church the man neither walks ahead of his wife nor behind his wife but at her side. They are coequals in this life in a great enterprise."
Hinckley's likely successor, Thomas S. Monson, said in a speech last year that women should seek secular education ---- not to pursue careers, but because their husbands might fall ill or die.
"You may find yourself in the role of financial provider," Monson said. "Some of you already occupy that role. I urge you to pursue your education ---- if you are not already doing so or have not done so -- that you might be prepared to provide if circumstances necessitate such."
Claudia Bushman, a Mormon author who has studied women's issues, said there has been little progress giving Mormon women new opportunities in the church, although she envisions greater roles in representing the church in civic settings and working with other faith traditions.
"The church does repress women, but it really doesn't repress women as much as bring men forward," Bushman said. "From the time Mormons are children, boys get a lot more encouragement than girls because they are needed for leadership roles. Men need more encouragement, I think."
I’m not going to get into this with you. There are scriptures in the Bible. There are also modern scriptures, which I believe and you don’t.
Briefly, it means being an heir to Christ, being in the Celestial Kingdom with Him.
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You got Scripture on that ????
Quick scan of my Strongs concordance, just to be fair...
“celestial kingdom” is not listed...
I know how particular mormons are about words actually being printed in the King James version...
I’m not going to get into this with you. There are scriptures in the Bible. There are also modern scriptures, which I believe and you don’t.
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Then if there are Scriptures, please source tyhem...
As a Christian, the Bible is important to me...
You mentioned something that you believe and I am just asking for the Biblical szcripture..
Either what you believe is in the Bible or it’s not...
The Bible talks about being heirs to all the Christ has. We have an explanation for that which takes this Biblical language very literally. The words “Celestial Kingdom” are from modern revelation.
I’m not going to get into a long debate with you about this. You interpret the Bible the way your pastors do, I interpret it the way my church does. We’re never going to agree.
The point of my post was about practical things arising from our doctrine, and that I feel very fortunate to be a Mormon woman. Not “second class” at all. In fact, anyone who knows me and my husband would die laughing at the suggestion.
The Bible talks about being heirs to all the Christ has. We have an explanation for that which takes this Biblical language very literally. The words “Celestial Kingdom” are from modern revelation.
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Not in the Bible ???
“Modern” meaning since the Bible ???
And it’s OK to believe the newer “revelation” ???
Then why dont mormons believe in the Trinity...????
Because the “trinity” did not come from revelation, through a prophet. It was negotiated by a bunch of clerics who were forced to come together by Constantine, under duress, and hammer out this primary debate among various Christian sects. They may have meant well, but you’d be just a likely to get doctrinal truth out of the General Assembly of the United Nations.
Guess I'll have to tell that one to the Holy Spirit, Who revealed that to me and likely millions of other Christians. But I have a feeling He won't think it's funny.
Do you believe in post-Biblical revelation?
Because the “trinity” did not come from revelation, through a prophet.
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Nor did your “celestial kingdom”
It was thought up by some adulterers and pedophiles wanting to fool silly and gullible women and ignorant parents of innocent young victims..
Only as concerns what is already said in Scripture, such as the following:
Luke 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
But Scripture already says that if any kind of revelation contradicts God’s Words or commands, then that revelation is not of God. The Scripture also says that the Holy Spirit is our teacher, guide, and comforter; but again, the Holy Spirit would not be divided against Himself and “teach another gospel” than Christ’s.
Oh brother, there you go. I knew it was a mistake to talk to you. All I can say is, given the level of discourse of the anti-Mormons on FR, I am proud and comforted that they are my enemies and not my friends.
Well, then how do you explain all the doctrinal differences amongst groups that you DO accept as Christian?
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Mothers Who KnowClick Here for Streaming Video
Julie B. Beck
There is eternal influence and power in motherhood. In the Book of Mormon we read about 2,000 exemplary young men who were exceedingly valiant, courageous, and strong. "Yea, they were men of truth and soberness, for they had been taught to keep the commandments of God and to walk uprightly before him" (Alma 53:21). These faithful young men paid tribute to their mothers. They said, "Our mothers knew it" (Alma 56:48). I would suspect that the mothers of Captain Moroni, Mosiah, Mormon, and other great leaders also knew. The responsibility mothers have today has never required more vigilance. More than at any time in the history of the world, we need mothers who know. Children are being born into a world where they "wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Ephesians 6:12).1 However, mothers need not fear. When mothers know who they are and who God is and have made covenants with Him, they will have great power and influence for good on their children. Mothers Who Know Bear Children Mothers who know desire to bear children. Whereas in many cultures in the world children are "becoming less valued,"2 in the culture of the gospel we still believe in having children. Prophets, seers, and revelators who were sustained at this conference have declared that "God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force."3 President Ezra Taft Benson taught that young couples should not postpone having children and that "in the eternal perspective, children—not possessions, not position, not prestige—are our greatest jewels."4 Faithful daughters of God desire children. In the scriptures we read of Eve (see Moses 4:26), Sarah (see Genesis 17:16), Rebekah (see Genesis 24:60), and Mary (see 1 Nephi 11:13–20), who were foreordained to be mothers before children were born to them. Some women are not given the responsibility of bearing children in mortality, but just as Hannah of the Old Testament prayed fervently for her child (see 1 Samuel 1:11), the value women place on motherhood in this life and the attributes of motherhood they attain here will rise with them in the Resurrection (see D&C 130:18). Women who desire and work toward that blessing in this life are promised they will receive it for all eternity, and eternity is much, much longer than mortality. There is eternal influence and power in motherhood. Mothers Who Know Honor Sacred Ordinances and Covenants Mothers who know honor sacred ordinances and covenants. I have visited sacrament meetings in some of the poorest places on the earth where mothers have dressed with great care in their Sunday best despite walking for miles on dusty streets and using worn-out public transportation. They bring daughters in clean and ironed dresses with hair brushed to perfection; their sons wear white shirts and ties and have missionary haircuts. These mothers know they are going to sacrament meeting, where covenants are renewed. These mothers have made and honor temple covenants. They know that if they are not pointing their children to the temple, they are not pointing them toward desired eternal goals. These mothers have influence and power. Mothers Who Know Are Nurturers Mothers who know are nurturers. This is their special assignment and role under the plan of happiness.5 To nurture means to cultivate, care for, and make grow. Therefore, mothers who know create a climate for spiritual and temporal growth in their homes. Another word for nurturing is homemaking. Homemaking includes cooking, washing clothes and dishes, and keeping an orderly home. Home is where women have the most power and influence; therefore, Latter-day Saint women should be the best homemakers in the world. Working beside children in homemaking tasks creates opportunities to teach and model qualities children should emulate. Nurturing mothers are knowledgeable, but all the education women attain will avail them nothing if they do not have the skill to make a home that creates a climate for spiritual growth. Growth happens best in a "house of order," and women should pattern their homes after the Lord's house (see D&C 109). Nurturing requires organization, patience, love, and work. Helping growth occur through nurturing is truly a powerful and influential role bestowed on women. Mothers Who Know Are Leaders Mothers who know are leaders. In equal partnership with their husbands, they lead a great and eternal organization. These mothers plan for the future of their organization. They plan for missions, temple marriages, and education. They plan for prayer, scripture study, and family home evening. Mothers who know build children into future leaders and are the primary examples of what leaders look like. They do not abandon their plan by succumbing to social pressure and worldly models of parenting. These wise mothers who know are selective about their own activities and involvement to conserve their limited strength in order to maximize their influence where it matters most. Mothers Who Know Are Teachers Mothers who know are always teachers. Since they are not babysitters, they are never off duty. A well-taught friend told me that he did not learn anything at church that he had not already learned at home. His parents used family scripture study, prayer, family home evening, mealtimes, and other gatherings to teach. Think of the power of our future missionary force if mothers considered their homes as a pre–missionary training center. Then the doctrines of the gospel taught in the MTC would be a review and not a revelation. That is influence; that is power. Mothers Who Know Do Less Mothers who know do less. They permit less of what will not bear good fruit eternally. They allow less media in their homes, less distraction, less activity that draws their children away from their home. Mothers who know are willing to live on less and consume less of the world's goods in order to spend more time with their children—more time eating together, more time working together, more time reading together, more time talking, laughing, singing, and exemplifying. These mothers choose carefully and do not try to choose it all. Their goal is to prepare a rising generation of children who will take the gospel of Jesus Christ into the entire world. Their goal is to prepare future fathers and mothers who will be builders of the Lord's kingdom for the next 50 years. That is influence; that is power. Mothers Who Know Stand Strong and Immovable Who will prepare this righteous generation of sons and daughters? Latter-day Saint women will do this—women who know and love the Lord and bear testimony of Him, women who are strong and immovable and who do not give up during difficult and discouraging times. We are led by an inspired prophet of God who has called upon the women of the Church to "stand strong and immovable for that which is correct and proper under the plan of the Lord."6 He has asked us to "begin in [our] own homes"7 to teach children the ways of truth. Latter-day Saint women should be the very best in the world at upholding, nurturing, and protecting families. I have every confidence that our women will do this and will come to be known as mothers who "knew" (Alma 56:48). In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Go Julie! -Spiff |
That was a great talk.
That's like comparing apples to oranges now. They're both fruit....and they both agree on the major issues as concerns what they are (the Trinity, being one); but they have a different understanding as to how to "best please" God. And seeing as how God didn't make us robots or clones, rather, individuals with a free will, it's rather obvious, isn't it, as to why there would be difference in how to perform the minutia concerning how to 'best' worship Him.
It's sort of like macro vs. micro Economics. They agree on the macro (really important stuff....that would be concerning the nature of God and salvation through Christ's blood on the Cross), they don't agree on the micro part (the part that isn't necessary for salvation). I'm less concerned about their differences over the micro than I am concerned about the differences in the MACRO: Mormonism v. Christianity. They ain't the same at all.
So the Nicene Creed is the be all and end all? It doesn’t matter that some Christians favor gay marriage, and some believe that women should be ordained? It doesn’t matter that some Christians question the divinity of Christ and believe he was just an inspiring teacher? That’s all “minutiae”?
I rely ONLY upon the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, Who instructs me as I read, to determine what it is I need to know about God.
For the most part, you're now asking specific questions about specific matters which are side-stepping the IMPORTANT MATTERS; you ask questions that are OUTSIDE the realm of Who God is and how to become saved. What do those things have to do with "getting" saved or how one becomes saved? Nothing.
Your questions deal now in BEHAVIORS not SALVATION.
Concerning the following question: some Christians question the divinity of Christ and believe he was just an inspiring teacher? Then, by definition, they are NOT Christian, are they? But you knew that before you asked.
The Nicene Creed was negotiated by the Councils of Nicea in the Fourth Century, and it is the “epitome” of the doctrine of the Trinity. Before that time, various Christian groups disagreed as to whether the Godhead was one acting as three, or three acting as one. The Council of Nicea settled on the former.
“Why is the Family Central to Heavenly Father’s Plan?”
The doctrine of the family begins with heavenly parents. Our highest aspiration is to be like them...
From the earliest beginnings, God established the family and made it eternal. Adam and Eve were sealed in marriage for time and all eternity...
With the restoration of these keys and priesthood authority comes the opportunity for all who are worthy to receive the blessings of eternal families...The Lord outlines the promise and requirements in this sacred verse:
And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them - Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths - then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life...and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seed forever and ever’ (C&C 132:19)...
When families are functioning as designed by God, the relationships found therein are the most valued of mortality. The plan of the Father is that family love and companionship will continue into the eternities”
(The Eternal Family,” Ensign, Nov. 1996, 64-65)
What Can I Do Because I Know That the Family Is Central to the Plan of Salvation?
“The family unit is fundamental...to our hope for eternal life. We begin to practice in the family, the smaller unit, what will spread to the Church and the society in which we live in this world, which will then be what we practice in families bound together forever by covenants and by faithfulness. We can start now to ‘promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family.’ I pray that we will. I pray that you will ask ‘Father, how can I prepare? “ Tell him how much you want what he desires to give you. You will receive impressions, and if you act on them, I promise you the help of the powers of heaven” (”the Family,” Liahona, Oct. 1998, 23; Ensign, Feb 1998, 18)
“In today’s world, children will need not only a devoted mother and father, but they will need each of us to protect, teach, and love them...Personal obedience and example in every part of our lives are the ultimate gospel lessons for children. So study, learn and apply the gospel” (”Behold your Little Ones,” Liahona and Ensign, Nov. 2006, 74-75.)
If you had any integrity, you’d have your name taken off the church rolls, so that sweet lady wouldn’t continue to waste her time.
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