Yes, this is a discussion forum. But, when it comes to Catholic doctrine and practices, we all know full well what invariably happens here. Therefore, it is in full keeping with Matthew 7:6 that threads like this should be caucused. Honest inquiries can still be made, but the execrable characterizations of the Eucharist that we see here and on nearly every other similarly themed thread would not take place. It is a disgrace to subject Our Lord to such venomous invective and wretched spew. It is also, when done knowing full well the massive precedent of thread after thread, more than arguably sinful.
If everyone here were "up for reasonable discussion," that would be one thing. But there are always 5-15 individuals who descend on these threads and not only ruin them by utterly hijacking the subject matter, they also wind up - intentionally or through sheer ignorance - uttering blasphemies in the process. To afford them the opportunity to heap coals on there own heads in this way is also wrong.
The better Catholic apologists from a few years ago seem to be largely absent from these "debates" of late. I suspect a certain amount of fatigue and disgust with it all. I felt it myself well over a year ago, and I'm just a hack compared to the people I have in mind. I hardly ever post myself anymore. Nothing changes. We all go around and around; our separated brethren seem to wallow in willful ignorance, citing the same falsehoods and deliberate misinterpretations over and over again. And unprotected threads (where they are eligible for caucus status), simply afford our misapprehending brethren more and more opportunities for their disingenuousness, even as they force the remaining few worthy Catholic apologists here to spend more and more time arguing with people who simply will not listen to the truth!
No! These threads, when left naked, are merely platforms for the creation of disingenuous counter-argument, feigned incomprehension, and (often) deliberate blasphemy and sacrilege. When protected, they can be a useful forum for expository dialogue from the Catholic side and honest inquiry from others. They do not have to be invariably turned into a collection of three-ring circuses, as they most assuredly are now.
This post that I am sending will be at or near the 260th post of this thread. Fully half are full of venom and invective against Our Eucharistic Lord - by professing "Christians," yet! Had this post been caucused, the invective would have been eliminated, the presentation of the Catholic case would still be available for all to read, reasonable questions and honest inquiry would be quite legitimate, the Catholics wouldn't have to repeat twenty times over the same clarifications against obfuscatory and disingenuous nonsense from the usual suspects of The Screeching Swarm, and I strongly suspect that there would be far fewer than 260+ posts overall. An objective review of the posts on this thread merely serves to confirm all of my apprehensions concerning the alarming naivete and lack of discernment some have in exposing even God Himself to ridicule on this forum. Read this thread objectively. A better case for invoking Matthew 7:6 can scarcely be found! Caucus these sorts of threads! The prosecution rests.
If everyone here were "up for reasonable discussion," that would be one thing. But there are always 5-15 individuals who descend on these threads and not only ruin them by utterly hijacking the subject matter, they also wind up - intentionally or through sheer ignorance - uttering blasphemies in the process.
First of all, it's humorous to read your plea for civility when you denigrate your opposition by the term, "The Swarm."
Second, your post illustrates what Bible-believing Christians have experienced for centuries -- that to disagree with Rome is a sin unto itself.
When a Protestant has a question, he is encouraged to return to Scripture and learn to rightly divide the words of God because we believe "every word of God is pure" (Proverbs 30:5) and that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). So we take up "the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God" (Ephesians 6:17) in order to know our salvation is by Jesus Christ alone.
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)
Mercifully, by the grace of God alone...
"...we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ." -- 2 Corinthians 2:17.
For the Roman Catholic, the very act of asking a question is loathsome to the church as a whole.
If Catholic apologists have left the discussion, it's apparent that...
1) their belief structure could not withstand nor even tolerate scrutiny, and
2) they failed to do as Peter instructed them...
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ." -- 1 Peter 3:15-16"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
As we've seen time and again on these threads, most recently in your post, to even question the teaching of the RCC is seen as "blasphemy." Thankfully, God has given us His word that shows us where blasphemy resides.
And it sure seeems as if this is at the heart of the RCC's angst -- its idolatry is clear to anyone who actually picks up a Bible and reads it. The more Roman dogma is shown to be riddled with fables and mysticism, the more vehement the personal attacks. And thus the need to shout down the discussion with rebukes such as...
"willful ignorance, citing the same falsehoods and deliberate misinterpretations over and over again. And unprotected threads (where they are eligible for caucus status), simply afford our misapprehending brethren more and more opportunities for their disingenuousness, even as they force the remaining few worthy Catholic apologists here to spend more and more time arguing with people who simply will not listen to the truth!"
"Willful ignorance... falsehoods... deliberate misinterpretations... disingenuous... and (the final insult!) people who simply will not listen to the truth!"
LOL...
•We are not "ignorant" of the RCC's doctrines and practices. We learn about them everyday from...you.
•We do not provide "falsehoods;" we provide Scripture for anyone to read and compare and discern for themselves what is truth and what is fiction.
•"Misinterpretations" are in the eyes of the beholder. Words are precise and carry specific meanings, i.e. "venerating dead people," which is prohibited in the Bible many times under several admonitions, and yet the RCC encourages that errant practice. "It all depends on what the definition of 'is' is."
•We "listen." We hear you quite clearly. And by the grace of God...
WE DISAGREE WITH YOU AND YOUR DEFINITION OF TRUTH.
But we do recognize that since Trent, the very act of disagreeing with Roman dogma purports to call up the demons from hell to destroy those who dare to question Rome.
Thankfully, we know a works-based salvation is meaningless. We know we are justified by Christ's sacrifice alone. We know our righteousness is His righteousness imputed to us, by the mercy of God alone. Like Paul, we know whom we have believed.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith... But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. " -- Galatians 5:1,4-5,18-21"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage...
We have all been warned. None here can say he is without the hearing of the truth. Understanding that truth with ears given by God is a gift from God we Bible-believing Christians hope for all those still tangled up in "the yoke of bondage."
"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." -- John 8:36
Gratitude is the proper perspective; gratitude to God alone for His grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but many of them were banned from FR.
And then there is always the distinct possibility that some of them have come over to the become Calvinists themselves... ;-)