Enjoy!
First of all, the Mass was not what I had been told that it was: a pagan ceremony. To those of you reading this who are Catholic, this may seem humorous, but many Protestants, especially those leaning toward "fundamentalism," seem to think that Catholics are pagans or Satan worshippers or something along those lines. I don’t know where this myth got started, but I would sure love to put it to rest.
Take the cue, Wiley, and stop posting erroneous information about the Catholic Church. And, for sake of providing corroborating witness to that statement, here is Dr. Scott Hahn, another convert, on the topic of the Mass.
Hahn begins by describing the first mass he ever attended.
"There I stood, a man incognito, a Protestant minister in plainclothes, slipping into the back of a Catholic chapel in Milwaukee to witness my first Mass. Curiosity had driven me there, and I still didn't feel sure that it was healthy curiosity. Studying the writings of the earliest Christians, I'd found countless references to "the liturgy," "the Eucharist," "the sacrifice." For those first Christians, the Bible - the book I loved above all - was incomprehensible apart from the event that today's Catholics called "the Mass."
"I wanted to understand the early Christians; yet I'd had no experience of Liturgy. So I persuaded myself to go and see, as a sort of academic exercise, but vowing all along that I would neither kneel nor take part in idolatry."
I took my seat in the shadows, in a pew at the very back of that basement chapel. Before me were a goodly number of worshipers, men and women of all ages. Their genuflections impressed me, as did their apparent concentration in prayer. Then a bell rang, and they all stood as the priest emerged from a door beside the altar.
Unsure of myself, I remained seated. For years, as an evangelical Calvinist, I'd been trained to believe that the Mass was the ultimate sacrilege a human could commit. The Mass, I had been taught, was a ritual that purported to "resacrifice Jesus Christ." So I would remain an observer. I would stay seated, with my Bible open beside me.
As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My Bible wasn't just beside me. It was before me - in the words of the Mass! One line was from Isaiah, another from Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, "Hey, can I explain what's happening from Scripture? This is great!" Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: "This is My body . . . This is the cup of My blood."
Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: "My Lord and my God. That's really you!"
I was what you might call a basket case from that point. I couldn't imagine a greater excitement than what those words had worked upon me. Yet the experience was intensified just a moment later, when I heard the congregation recite: "Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God," and the priest respond, "This is the Lamb of God . . ." as he raised the host. In less than a minute, the phrase "Lamb of God" had rung out four times. From long years of studying the Bible, I immediately knew where I was. I was in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is called the Lamb no less than twenty-eight times in twenty-two chapters. I was at the marriage feast that John describes at the end of that very last book of the Bible. I was before the throne of heaven, where Jesus is hailed forever as the Lamb. I wasn't ready for this, though - I was at Mass!
We are all praying for you, Wiley!
Would that all christians would read the Bible as thoughtfully!
In this we have known the charity of God, because he hath laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. He that hath the substance of this world, and shall see his brother in need, and shall shut up his bowels from him: how doth the charity of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth. In this we know that we are of the truth: and in his sight shall persuade our hearts. For if our heart reprehend us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
Dearly beloved, if our heart do not reprehend us, we have confidence towards God: And whatsoever we shall ask, we shall receive of him: because we keep his commandments, and do those things which are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ: and love one another, as he hath given commandment unto us. And he that keepeth his commandments, abideth in him, and he in him. And in this we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
- 1 John 3: 11-24
Thanks
God never intended for “religion” to be part of His plan!
It’s a heart/faith matter.
It was man who started to squabble as to who was right regarding scripture.
I was raised catholic, gave my life to Christ in a Baptist church and attend a non-denominational church.
If something in my spirit checks me during or after hearing my Pastors teaching, I confirm or deny it by reading the scriptures - period.
Conversions to anything (including Pentecostalism/charismania from anything tend to occur during a period of hightened period of existential/ spiritual/ emotional/ psychodynamic trauma, stress, intense searching.
Given that the particulars are always arguable vis a vis Scripture, tradition, reason, . . . whatever . . . it's clear to me that
1. Personality and where that personality is at that moment in time vis a vis the groups/ideologies on offer . . . will, to a very significant percentage, determine the degree of a perceived match/fit.
2. Folks tend to gravitate toward those groups [and I think it is more group vs ideology--that is--I think particular individuals and groups reaching out in warmth and love make an ideology FIT vs the other way around] . . . folks tend to gravitate toward groups which contribute strongly to their FEELING WARMLY SUPPORTED, ENGULFED, NURTURED, PROTECTED AND PARTICULARLY . . . TO FEEL FINALLY "RIGHT" in all "right's" implications.
3. God uses all such for His purposes. Sometimes folks GET IT and end up in a closer relationship with God--virtually regardless of the group gone TO. Other times, folks end up merely addicted, idolizing yet another group and ideology in a long string of grabbed objects in a long wandering.
Certainly this is true for the 100's of thousands, even millions leaving the RC edifice in South America for various flavors of Pentecostalism/ charismania etc. Though I think it could be strongly argued in those cases that
Leaving a group (the RC edifice) where there was a clear, evident "FORM OF GODLINESS BUT DENYING THE POWER THEREOF" for much more GOD FOCUSED, much closer, down to earth, warmer DEMONSTRATIONS of the power of God to meet individuals where they are hurting--devoid of rigid, narrow ritual . . . often devoid of human junk at all.
God's DEMONSTRATED anointing and power will always OUT-TRUMP ideology, ritual, magicsterical, !!!!TRADITION!!!!, arguments, rubber Bibles, rubber histories, rubber logic and whatever else dares to compete. The coming years will abundantly demonstrate this as never before, imho.
Nevertheless, there are "rice Christians" and potential rice Christians the world over . . . who jump one ship because humans and too often the enemy of their souls have convinced them that a different group offers a better deal; a better God-deal; a better chance to be loved, supported, protected . . . a better chance to BE RIGHT . . . usually because mommy and daddy didn't convince them tbey were quite right enough HUMAN-WISE the first 6-8 years of life. This will continue to be true for folks leaving Pentecostalism for Calvinism, for the RC edifice . . . for whatever . . . as it will be for SOME folks leaving such other groups for Pentecostalism and Charismania.
Always pretending that it's a function of a long string of carefully rationalized LOGICAL, TRADITIONAL, EVIDENTIAL constructs and questionable 'truths' and benchmarks . . . is . . . at best . . . dubious, imho.
Certainly some groups are more Scriptural AND WALK CLOSER TO GOD THAN OTHERS. THIS IS TRUE WITHIN EACH DENOMINATION/ 'RELIGIOUS CLUB' AS MUCH AS IT IS BETWEEN GROUPS. We like to pretend that our particular chosen RELIGIOUS CLUB has a corner on truth. And, philosophically, theoretically, ostensibly, logically, positionally, . . . that may be true, TO A DEGREE ON SOME SET OF ISSUES.
However, in practice . . . the rubber meets the road for most individuals and groups more or less the same as for other individuals and groups. The walking the talk is greatly lacking in ALL RELIGIOUS CLUBS--INCLUDING THE RC EDIFICE . . . sometimes seemingly especially the RC edifice. And the lack of walking the talk as Peter or John or Paul did . . . with healings and deliverances accordingly . . . is the same for all . . . human junk. Refusing to make GOD AND HIS WAYS SUFFICIENT PRIORITY to have His Health, Wholeness and Provision--routinely.
Folks do what they want to do when they want to do it instead of what God wants when God wants it. Folks fail to pray and fast sufficiently, including, me. Folks fail to put God and His ways utterly first in all their doings, too often, including me--though by His Grace, I'm much better than I used to be. Consequently, the anointing leaves; the miracles are lacking.
All this is true REGARDLESS of FORMER ANOINTINGS AND CALLINGS. This is true REGARDLESS of !!!TRADITIONs!!!; regardless of RELIGIOUS TIDY LITTLE BOXED lineages; regardless of rubber logic; rubber histories; rubber Bibles; regardless of how many grandpaws were preachers; regardless of what GOD HIMSELF HAS DONE IN THE PAST through a given individual or group or collection of groups.
The only conclusion I can come to is . . . ONGOINGLY SEEKING GOD FIRST AND FOREMOST . . . AND ONGOINGLY DOING HIS WILL FIRST AND FOREMOST . . . ARE GREATLY HIGHER PRIORITIES TO GOD than the brand name on the RELIGIOUS CLUB DOOR.
BTW, this color blue is brought to you through the courtesy of Mad Dawg . . . who requested it . . . wellllll . . . not quite . . . but sort of . . . I understand he was missing it. Tee hee.
BTW, pontificating rationalizations to the contrary are likely to elicit lots of GTTMs.
Thanks for the conversion stories. Becoming a convert after my marriage to a Catholic - I’m continually learning as I go through life. The conversion stories are powerful stories for me, personally.
I’ve gone through some tough times spiritually lately, so these are very timely for me.
You’d think apostasy was a new thing.
We are at a time when all believers of our Lord Jesus Christ need to come together and seek only Him. We need to encourage others to seek Him while He still may be found. I have learned to only trust His Words. I now understand why he says that no one gets to the Father except through Him.
I have been both Catholic and Baptist. I have seen both apostates and true believers in both denominations. I believe that right now, in this present day, the biggest danger to all believers of Jesus Christ is the ever present compromise of Jesus by these apostates in order to push a relative truth. A false truth where we can all coexist in interfaith dialog under a universalistic works based theology.
That is the bottom line. Will you, as a Christian, put a man made religion, of any religion, of any Christian denomination, before your Savior?
I don’t think any of you will. I love you all.
From a Baptist viewpoint, being baptized is only a symbol, and nothing more. In other words, for a Baptist, baptism isn't really necessary for salvation.
Wince! I'd like this brother to understand the difference between "ordinary" necessity and what you might call "absolute" necessity.
I am intrigued about the requirement of Baptism before Eucharist. There are plenty of Protestants around here (Central Virginia) for whom "the Lord's Supper" is no big deal and anyone can partake, baptized or not.
I quit harassing the Catholics so much and tried to see them as fellow Christians rather than "the enemy."
I wonder if the reason that doesn't happen much on FR is that people fear that if they do that, pretty soon they'll be "kissing the Pope's toe".
"So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. (John 4:46, KJV)"
Grape juice? When I first came to Virginia the only work I could get was stoop labor in a Vineyard. (I still hurt from it - and I seriously think that the fungicide we sprayed has compromised my health a little.) I did get to see where our grapes were crushed. It was pretty revolting. It's a big operation to refine Welches off of squeezed grapes, and then if you don't pasteurize it it'll start "cooking" from wild yeasts pretty soon anyway. Still "new wine" it is. Jesus never drank fermented wine, we all know that. And I am the Queen of Romania.
I started dating a younger Catholic girl who lived in the Dallas area.
Catholic girls! Our secret weapon!
To Oliver Optic
I was reading the Hahn's book, "Rome Sweet Home," and the question occurred to me ... how do Catholics explain Mary and the saints being able to hear and respond to thousands of prayers at one time?
Obviously the answer is: GREAT secretarial staff!while I have concerns about the sort of practical "omniscience" ..., it ain't OMNIscience, it's LOTSiscience. (Free neologism, no extra charge.)
Then, we think that heaven and those in it are not bound by time. Not only is a thousand years like a moment, but a moment is like a thousand years. AND prayers, even to saints, are, what shall we say, "conveyed" by the Holy Spirit by whom we are all made one body in Christ.
To Papertyger
Another case of STS.
Yep. Log that puppy.
Oh, oh! thread's getting ugly, I'm outta here.
Wide is the path that leads to Rome and there are many who find it.
And many have walked the road away from the Catholic Church to Protestantism.
As long as one does not walk away from Jesus.