Posted on 02/19/2008 11:55:18 AM PST by NYer
Hatred usually comes out of childhood junk . . . at least at its roots.
But a LOT of fierceness is taken hereon as hatred when it’s not—NOT AT ALL. It’s just a fiercely intense style of saying profoundly emotional and profoundly important RELIGIOUS/spiritual things.
I think in those cases, folks need to roll with the punche and go on. Either they believe what they believe for good reasons or not. If not . . . change. If so, what does it matter how fiercely intense someone’s communicating style is???
People have mocked, derided, been haughty and hostile and even demeaning, insulting and satirical about Pentecostalism all my life. So what. They don’t know. Many times they haven’t a clue what they are talking about. They certainly haven’t traveled my path in my shoes. They certainly weren’t there the many times God has met me and my need rather dramatically and miraculously. They weren’t there the many times God confirmed a lot of very interesting and startling things in my life. So what.
I’m not going to convince them. And I don’t need to take things overly personal.
A lot of RC folks have responded to a lot of my dramatic fierce statements as hatred, etc. etc. etc. But I haven’t felt a microgram’s worth of such feelings toward ANYONE hereon—at all.
Much of my life is fiercely intense—just the way I’m made. And, I have a very intense pointed fierce communications style—particuarly about things I care deeply about—spiritual things.
But I’m that way teaching my classes—very in-students’-faces—literally—horseshoe seating . . . walking around a lot —off the wall demonstrations and surprises—role playing—satire etc.
But the students know I’m serious, play for keeps AND PARTICULARLY THAT I LOVE EACH ONE OF THEM. Not sure how all that successfully gets across but it does.
Doesn’t so easily get across in this text medium. But surprising numbers of even lurkers have noted that it’s there.
So, I end up coming back to the conclusion that too many RC’s have too thin a skin to detach themselves from the issues and icons and rituals and whatever ENOUGH to take someone else’s intense whatevers at it with a grain of salt or whatever.
I find MarkBsnr’s hostile stuff toward Prottys ABOUT AS INSULTING, DERISIVE, . . . . whatever . . . that he and his buddy find my words about some RC stuff.
It’s just differently put . . . but about as intense and IF I HAD A CHIP ON MY SHOULDER OR THIN SKIN—I’D HAVE JUST AS MUCH CAUSE to get and stay all irate, indignent etc.
But it’s not worth it. It’s not where my heart is at. Jesus is a Big Guy. He can take care of His priorities far better than I can.
I can speak out as well as I feebly can when I feel so moved. But it’s all just noise. Some of it is hopefully noise of some use to some lurkers and maybe some others occasionally. But that’ God’s affair.
Anyway—I hope you get some rest. If you don’t take care of yourself, you can’t well take care of anyone else!
I don’t know what to do with “bigots” and “fanatics” besides conclude that they evidently believe some things more rigidly and more intensely than I do.
Blessings,
I’m not going to give you the Catechism answer, just something to think about. The saints are with God! It is ONLY through CHRIST that they are in Heaven.
Let’s take a purely secular analogy. Say you work at a huge conglomerate and you are at the bottom of the rung, making minimum wage, you have no power or prestige, you are just a little nobody. Then, one day the CEO sees you and just knows that you are someone so he takes you under his wing to show you the ropes. Everyone knows that you’re in the office next to the big boss and you are communicating about everything, when you speak everyone listens because they know that, ultimately your words are coming straight from the top. People can ask you for favors because they know you and the boss are tight because the boss chose you to be where you are.
The saints are in Heaven. They are no longer bound by human frailties, they are in the heavenly realm that human minds can’t even comprehend. They SEE God! They have power THROUGH GOD! NONE of the saints are in Heaven by their own power but by the grace of God. There is no power besides God but we know that God uses people on earth to further His kingdom, why would he not use the saints in heaven? Emmanuel, God is with us and NOTHING separates us, nothing, God is with us, the saints are with God and therefore with us also.
'Even So then at this Present Time Also there is a Remnant According to the Election of Grace.
And if by Grace, then is it No More of Works; Otherwise Grace is No More Grace.
But if it be of Works, then is it No More Grace: Otherwise Work is No More Work.' (Rom.11:5,6)
OMG, I know just what you mean. I had already felt it with some Fundamentalist friends that I had but they don’t have the anonymity of the internet to let it all hang out.
Hey Quix,
did you ever read Eusibius and his History of the Church?
Do yourself a favor and read what he so painstakingly documented on Christian life in the first and second centuries. It is a real eyeopener.
Regards
Lurking
I don't know what "confession" you're talking about, so I don't know how to answer that questiion.
What about the public school teacher that tried to publicly humiliate my wife as a child because she knew "Son of God" means "God incarnate" and he, as a lifelong Baptist, didn't?
What about him? Are you expecting me to defend his public humiliation of your wife or something? Or is that supposed to somehow "prove" that the Bible has errors?
Of course these things aren't going to change the good things you know, just as I will keep the good things I know.
Maybe not, but it wouldn't hurt the two or three Catholic FReepers who do believe in total inerrancy to speak out once in a while instead of allowing the errantists and evolutionists to be the public face of the Catholic Church on FR.
Of what value is holding a doctrine of total biblical inerrancy when it manifests itself as our functionally illiterate brother boldly standing up to proclaim Acts 7:54 of the King James Bible *clearly* proves the Sanhedrin where so mad at Steven they actually bit him!
Anyone functionally illiterate would be unable to read the verse you cite (or any other verse), so I don't understand your point there. But one thing I do believe is that the Catholics of past ages who didn't read the Bible much (note that I didn't say there were "forbidden" to read the Bible; I said they "didn't read it much") were better off for acknowledging that G-d does not lie than the modern Catholic who reads the Bible every day--along with higher critical commentaries written by the likes of Raymond Brown--so that however well he knows the contents he ascribes them to ancient Babylonian mythology adapted much later and then dishonestly attributed to Moses (or Daniel, or whoever). It is one of the greatest tragedies of the Catholic "Biblical movement" that Biblical literacy has been indelibly polluted with "higher criticism." Yes, Catholics who read the Bible but believe it's a forgery are in much worse shape than people who never picked it up but who believed it was inerrant. I suppose you want to argue with me?
Would to God we all took Paul's advice about meat sacrificed to idols as a general instead of a specific.
And now I have no idea what you're talking about.
What about him? I suspect the lifelong Baptist knew that Jesus didn't become incarnate to take multiple wives and father multiple children...
Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.- Genesis 6:1-4
Alex,
I think this is the first time I can remember, when the “Neverending Story” between Calvinists and Catholics has not occupied the majority of the recent posts on the Religion Forum. It appears the Evangelical Protestants v. Mormons is now the leading battle.
We’ve been supplanted, I’ll admit, I am ambivalent, lol.
God Bless
I notice that you place all the burden on Fundamentalist Protestants. Have you ever considered that it is possible for a Catholic or a mormon to be a bigot? Or is this that "poor little minority vs. the masses of illiterate hayseeds" thing again?
It's not as if Fundamentalism owns conservatism. I'd say if conservatism had rulers those rulers would be Catholic rather than Fundamentalist--whether considering William F. Buckley Jr. or the place the Catholic Church holds in the hearts of the "palaeo" worshipers of "western civilization." In fact, the traditional Catholic hostility to Jews and Israel was very dominant in conservatism for a long, long time, despite the fact that pro-Israel Fundamentalists outnumber Catholics in the United States.
I don't suppose the fact that so many Catholics think that people who insist on total Biblical inerrancy are brain-damaged or retarded bothers you in the least? But I forget, I'm addressing the inventor of "Billy Bob's Glory Barn." I forget myself! Blacks can't be racists, and Catholics can't be bigots (except in Spain)!
No, the context was He insisting that my wife's assertions about the Incarnation were wrong.
I did neglect to mention the dispute was in the context of the identity of Christ. Thanks for pointing out my oversight.
Where are you getting this idea that most Catholic Freepers believe in evolution?
I’m puzzled.
**. In fact, I was Catholic for six years.**
Didn’t know this about you. You can always come home.
Only a few paragraphs, I think.
Maybe a few pages.
Do you have a handy link.
What would you hope I’d get from such reading?
Your "denomination" or "tradition."
What about him? Are you expecting me to defend his public humiliation of your wife or something? Or is that supposed to somehow "prove" that the Bible has errors?
It is intended to demonstrate theological ignorance is not solely a Catholic fault.
Maybe not, but it wouldn't hurt the two or three Catholic FReepers who do believe in total inerrancy to speak out once in a while instead of allowing the errantists and evolutionists to be the public face of the Catholic Church on FR
You are assuming the Bible is as foundational to Catholics as it is to you: that would be a mistake.
Anyone functionally illiterate would be unable to read the verse you cite...
"Functional illiterate" is not the same as "illiterate." The latter can't read at all, the former can read the words, but doesn't know what they mean.
And now I have no idea what you're talking about.
Paul writes in Corinthians about some brothers being critical of others either because their faith is not as strong, or stronger than our own. This is typified by the controversy over "meat sacrificed to idols." A good modern analogy would be something like the use of alcohol.
Sure, it's possible, but that's not relevant to my point.
Ever heard of the "religious right"? Who do you think wags the tail of that particular dog? It isn't Catholics. Perhaps it should be, but in the real world of real American politics in the late 20th and early 21st Century, it isn't.
I'd say if conservatism had rulers those rulers would be Catholic rather than Fundamentalist
Buckley is hardly a "ruler" of conservatism, unless you conceive of conservatism as some sort of dry intellectual exercise conducted in the pages of a magazine. I don't. Who else? Buchanan? A fringe goofball any more. Sobran? Ditto. Brownback? Good guy, but how far did he get? Nowhere. Who else? Anyone? Buehler?
Know how many Catholic Presidential or Vice-Presidential candidates the Republican party has ever nominated? Oh yeah, that would be *zero*, right?
So much for "ruling" conservatism.
In fact, the traditional Catholic hostility to Jews and Israel was very dominant in conservatism for a long, long time
Yeah, it was accompanied by the traditional country-club Republican hostility to Catholics, or didn't you notice that?!?!.
Sometimes I wonder what world you live in, ZC.
But I forget, I'm addressing the inventor of "Billy Bob's Glory Barn."
Speaking of which: Wrong, buddy. My only connection with that was that I found someone else's joke amusing. I guess I've now morphed in your mind into the inventor of same. Whatever.
Of course it is possible for both to be true. HOWEVER, most Catholics and Mormons on this site came here with the same opinion I did - that we are all of a piece, and that our similarities far outweigh our differences. I still feel that way about Mormons and the mainstream Protestants on this site, but I no longer believe that about Fundamentalists; I feel that I have been rudely awakened as to the truth of the Fundamentalist movement. The simple fact is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a Catholic thread around here without some virulently anti-Catholic Fundamentalist barging in with a "whore of Babylon" story or other. I assume the same is universally true on Mormon-related threads. You will not find such to be true on the Fundamentalist threads. The fight-picking around here is nearly always done by Fundamentalist Protestants on threads dealing with Catholicism. Perhaps if you steered clear of Catholic threads and talk amongst your own we wouldn't have these issues? Like Campion, I out-of-hand rejected voting for Mike Huckabee for exactly the samer reasons he stated.
I don't regard Fundamentalists as idiots. Prior to my joining FR, I regarded you as my fellow Christians. Now I regard you as dangerous to the ideals of American democracy. And as I said, I hope that view is only formed by the few uninformed Fundamentalists who troll every Catholic thread looking for trouble, but you have all formed that view in me. So be it.
What about the letters to the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation? How do you view those?
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