Haven't Anti-Mormons Completely Destroyed the Credibility of Mormonism?

jefflindsay.com ^ | Nov. 5, 2006 | Jeff Lindsay

[nicmarlo]

Clarification, the sentence should state:

What the false prophet Joseph Smith said is of NO comparison, whatsoever, with Paul...

[Zakeet]

Re: Hoax, a translation was never made, and a statement attributed to Joseph about what they were was from someone elses journal. No translation was done, though the Church had them for many years.

JOSEPH PRONOUNCED THESE PLATES GENUINE!

As described in detail with annotations HERE, Joseph Smith accepted these plates as authentic and even claimed he had translated a portion of them.

According to the diary of William Clayton, Joseph Smith's private secretary:

I have translated a portion of them and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth. Joseph Smith

The plates were lost for a number of years until one was rediscovered in the 1950's in Chicago Historical Society Museum.

In 1962, Welby W. Ricks, President of the BYU Archaeological Society, hailed the find as a vindication of Joseph Smith's work:

A recent rediscovery of one of the Kinderhook plates which was examined by Joseph Smith, Jun., reaffirms his prophetic calling and reveals the false statements made by one of the finders....

The plates are now back in their original category of genuine.... Joseph Smith, Jun., stands as a true prophet and translator of ancient records by divine means and all the world is invited to investigate the truth which has sprung out of the earth not only of the Kinderhook plates, but of the Book of Mormon as well.

In the mid-1960's, an engineering analysis conclusively proved the plates were of 19th century origin. They were part of a cruel hoax, and Joseph Smith was duped.

The Mormon Church has since adjusted its position on the plates in line with your statement.

[farmer18th]

Thanks for taking my question seriously. I know this topic generates a lot of flame sometimes, without much light.

With respect to your answer:

Smith was a prophet. He taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We must accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation. Therefore, we must incidentally accept Smith, who taught the Gospel, as a genuine prophet.

The quote in question, though:

[There is] no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith...

..seems pretty explicit, as though the believer would have to accept Joseph Smith overtly and not incidentally. I know a lot of Mormons who would be startled to even read that quote; it just seems like the Church would be more consistant if it just repudiated the doctrine overtly as one of the many steps it might consider taking towards building a bridge towards (don't take this the wrong way) orthodoxy.

I routinely find myself defending the Mormons because of their conviction that the gospel of Jesus Christ should be seen in the fruits of the culture itself, that religion is not just a praise experience on Sunday, but I can't help finding some of the more ecstatic utterances of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young impossible to defend.

[fproy2222]

Why do you lash out at Joseph Smith for saying “as far as it is translated correctly” when you are doing the same thing, even calling it a poor translation?

=+=+=

This is probably due to the fact that the ‘english’ used is very old fashioned: Wist Thou not?

When the LDS scriputers are tranlated into non-English languages; you do NOT use what was in vogue 400 years ago, but in TODAY’s vernacular.

++++++++++++++=

I remember that question being answered over the pulpit at General Conference a few years back.

Would you help find it please?

[fproy2222]

Joseph Smith takes care of you?

Did Jesus get bumped to one of the lesser kingdoms?

++++++++++++++++

How did you get that falsehood from our teachings?

[Saundra Duffy]

“I think that means she doesn’t know how many gods there are.”

Where is Moses’ body? I demand that you tell me this instant. I’m sure you know, since you have infinite spiritual insight into God’s mind. Actually, now that I think of it, since God Himself apparently took possession of Moses’ body, I want you to tell me what form Moses’ body is in right now. Thank you.

[fproy2222]

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

+++++++++++++++

Thanks for putting in red a reminder from the Bible that their will be messengers from God after the close of the
bible.

[fproy2222]

Did you just say that Heaven will be great, but you do not know what great is?

[nicmarlo]

Yep..........and Joseph Smith fits in the category of FALSE PROPHETS about whom the followers are Christ are warned not to believe.

[colorcountry]

Did you just say that Heaven will be great, but you do not know what great is?

I just said, "I trust my Lord to know what great is, I cannot even fathom the greatness of God."

In Mormonism, one tends to focus on "earthly pleasures" like sex and children, when contemplating the magnificence of Heaven. I don't think earth will compare at all to Heaven.

Do you trust God, to make His dwelling place wonderful? Or must you create an earthlike heavenly realm to dwell on (as if your sinful human mind could compete with the majesty of God)?

[fproy2222]

Yep..........and Joseph Smith fits in the category of FALSE PROPHETS about whom the followers are Christ are warned not to believe.

++++++++++++++

Since you do not believe that Brother Joesph was a Prophet, where are the leaders Father promises in the Bible?

[nicmarlo]

Jesus Christ is God.

The promise of God, the Father, is that anyone who sets himself up to be better than or like God is condemnation to hell. He gave but one example by booting Lucifer out of heaven and into the pit.

[andysandmikesmom]

Thanks for that reference to the LDS hymnbook...now, I am not a Mormon...however, I am quite appreciative of your providing a link to this hymnbook, and here is exactly why...

I used to play organ and piano in the Methodist Church, for many, many years..however, once we started moving around the country due to military moves, that kind of went by the wayside...moving to new areas, and finding new churches, those churches already had their own organists and pianists, and I was content to just be part of the congregation, and sing along, rather than be the one providing the music...

And because we have moved so much, I never took my piano with...my sheet music slowly disappeared over the years, some due to our moving...

And so, it just seemed that part of my life was over...I no longer had piano or organ, or even my sheet music...I am now in my early 60’s....my primary piano and organ playing days in church were when I was in my teens, my 20’s and some small amount in my 30’s...so it had seemed my days of piano and organ playing were relegated back to my youth...

However this past Christmas, my younger son, always trying to outdo himself each Christmas, presented me with my Christmas Present...it could tell from its shape and feel, that it was a book of some sort...now the son told me, that this was just part 1 of my Christmas present and I should look at it, and try to figure out what part 2 was, and if I really wanted it...I guess he was somewhat dubious about how I would feel about this present...

So, I opened up the first part, the book, and sure enough it was a book, but a book full of different classifications of sheet music...there was patriotic music, religious music, show tune music, folk music, etc, and there were numerous tunes of sheet music in each category...then my son wanted me to guess what the second part of the gift was...well, all I could guess was that it was a piano, or an organ...and I was correct...but the son, not being a musician himself, wondered if I still remembered how to play, and did I really want this piano/organ..he had the second half of my gift out in his Jeep, not willing to bring it in, unless I really wanted it...he was fearful, that I had forgotten how to play, and would not want the piano/organ...Did I want it?...oh, you bet...I have so missed playing tunes...and the son did not apparently realize that once you know how to play an instrument, you never forget...or at least I did not...I feel, it is like riding a bike, one you know how, you never ever forget....so the son was thrilled, I was in tears, and so the son and hubby went out to the Jeep, and hauled my Christmas present in...

Now, it is unlike my old upright piano that I used all my church playing days, and unlike the baby grand I played in church, and unlike the organs I played in church...it is smaller, more compact, and lightweight...but it is a keyboard, which has many controls that I can access to have my keyboard sound like a grand piano, a pipe organ, an accoustic keyboard, a harpsichord, strings, and many other instruments...it is quite wonderful...

So I had the songbook that my son had given me, with which to practice and I have been able to download some sheet music off the internet, many of the old and popular songs we sang in the Methodist church...soon I was going to head out to some music stores, to purchase more sheet music, as I slowly am once again, honing my skills...

So, when I saw this link to the LDS hymnbook, I went right to it...there I found many songs I immediately recognized, and many I did not...so I will busy downloading this music...it is wonderful to download old and familiar tunes, they are like old friends, but it is also exciting for me, to be downloading new songs with which to practice...

I know this was a long dragged out story, however, I just wanted you to know, why I so much appreciated, this link to the LDS hymnbook being posted...even tho I am not a Mormon, I often watch the LDS program on TV, on Sunday mornings, and often the choir may sing hymns, with which I am not at all familiar, and yet they are beautiful songs...I am hopeful, that I shall find some of them in this LDS hymnal...

So many thanks...

[Zakeet]

Thanks for that reference to the LDS hymnbook...now, I am not a Mormon...however, I am quite appreciative of your providing a link to this hymnbook

YOU'RE WELCOME

Some of the hymns written by Mormons are indeed wonderful.

One of my favorite contributors to the Mormon Hymnal is Eliza Roxy Snow. At one time, I believe, it contained as many as 17 of her poems set to music in that book. Most of them are excellent. If you like, you can listen to some of her work (and obtain sheet music) HERE and HERE. I am especially fond of the hymn Great is the Lord.

Quite frequently, as is the case with so many things related to Mormonism, there is a story behind the story, so to speak. And unfortunately, this is the case with Ms. Snow.

Eliza was a devout Mormon. At age 38, she became Joseph Smith's 14th plural wife (in addition to Smith's lawful wife, Emma). In 1842, after learning Eliza was pregnant, Emma Smith beat Eliza with a broomstick and knocked her down a flight of stairs, causing Eliza to miscarry Smith's baby.

Eliza would marry Brigham Young after Smith’s death. She died childless.

Incidentally, it is also interesting to listen for subtle (and in some cases, not-so-subtle) injections of non-Christian doctrine in Mormon hymns.

[Tennessee Nana]

Joseph’s “I’m greater than Jesus” remark was not taken out of context,
_______________________________________________

Years ago the Beatles said “We are more famous than Jesus”

Were they closet members of the mormon cult ???

Joe Smith clones/wannabes ?????

It is acceptable to be a member incognito...

[andysandmikesmom]

Thank you for your response and further links...

Yes, often there are very interesting stories behind the people who have written many of the hundreds, thousands of religious hymns that are in circulation...I always like to read the stories behind the music, as I am always interested in what motivates people, regarding the things that they do in life....

In the Methodist church, I remember that every so often, there would be a new hymnal that would be used..the old hymnals would be collected up, and new ones would be distributed....and very often certain popular old hymns would be taken out of the old hymnal, and replaced with newer or different hymns...I once asked the minister why this happened, and he remarked that often some of the older hymns were not in complete agreement with Biblical theology, and so even tho they were once popular, they were discarded from the hymnals...

One tune that I remembered at being disappointed over seeing its removal, was ‘In the Bleak MidWinter’....that has always been my favorite Christmas song of all time...and yet it was discarded, I think, in part, because it has been recognized that altho we celebrate Christmas during the winter, Christ was not born in the winter...so the basic premise of the song was really non-Christian doctrine, and that is probably why the song was eliminated from the hymnbook....

And then I noticed, it was quite difficult to even find a CD of Christmas songs, even religious Christmas songs, that even included ‘In the Bleak Midwinter’....the hubby and I used to scour all sorts of CD catalogs trying to find even one or two CD’s which included that song...however, in the past decade ‘In the Bleak Midwinter’, has had some sort of a ressurance, and I have been able to purchase many CD’s that include that song...and as a sidenote, I watched one of the Mormon Christmas programs, just this past Christmas, and they had a guest soloist, who did sing ‘In the Bleak Midwinter’, and did so in such a beautiful and haunting way, that it touched me in quite a wonderful way...

So many hymns, even old favorites from many different religions, do has aspects about them, that actually are on unsound Biblical doctrine, but because they are so well known, and so familiar, they are often still sung...on the other hand sometimes because they are on unsound Biblical doctrine, they are discarded...

Again, thank for your links...

[Elsie]

Could you find the references as to who God has caring for the people of other dispensations.

None.

Your dead 'prophet' is NOT 'caring' for you.

Nahum 1:7
The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,

1 Peter 5:6-7
6. Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.
7. Cast all your anxiety on him because He cares for you.

[Elsie]

You and others use words like

“JoeWorksSmith”

and then find it strange that we think you are condemning instead of truing to teach, as you claim.

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” 
 

Your concern is highly suspect.

 

Your Organization has NEVER rescinded these words and ideas.

 

 

So, if we Christians get a little testy; I'm sure you could have a bit of compassion and understand where we are coming from; right?

[Zakeet]

Joseph’s “I’m greater than Jesus” remark was not taken out of context.

YOU'RE RIGHT!

The spat you refer to began with this POST where I pointed out how Joseph was struck down shortly after he boasted he was greater than Jesus.

As you can see HERE, Sevenbak responded by asserting I took Smith's remarks completely out of context in order to destroy the faith of others, and make yourselves appear better among men.

I answered Sevenbak's charge HERE.

Essentially, things boiled down to the following positions:

Sevenbak: Smith was a humble servant of God facing intense persecution who used the Greater than Jesus statement as a metaphor to explain Gospel principles. He did this in a manner not unlike the Apostle Paul, who used similar metaphors in his letters.

Zakeet: Smith was boasting in an attempt to establish his authority and lying in order to save his butt.

Unfortunately, in my haste, I inadvertently forgot to post a link to Smith's entire sermon. I hereby rectify that omission with THIS.

I also invite the reader of this thread to read the entire sermon and decide for him/herself whether Joseph was being humble in the manner of the Apostle Paul, or answering charges of corruption and polygamy leveled against him.

[Elsie]

Would you help find it please?

No.