[farmer18th]

He said that all of the bars and pool halls would be closed, pornography banished, pristine streets and sidewalks would be occupied by tidy pedestrians who smiled at each other. There would be no swearing. The kids would answer "Yes, sir," "No, ma'am," and the churches would be full on Sunday ... where Christ is not preached.

These are the sort of distinctions made by Pastors who are, indeed, ashamed that their preaching of Christ hasn't yielded any of the fruit that would indeed look very similar to the picture being painted. In other words, these are meaningless distinctions made by lazy followers of Christ's message. If we really are following him, the fruit will be seen in the culture itself. If we are filling up stadiums with men raising their hands and hearing "Jesus preached," why are we will electing Obama, Hillary or John McCain? It doesn't follow.

The John MacArthur types are the preachers who don't really want to be tested for signs of regeneration in their flocks--because they know they'll come up short.

[Terriergal]

Ha, Well Jesus was pretty successful then. The whole world seemed to love and accept him and the apostles.

[Terriergal]

Jan and Paul Crouch are dominionists/believe we can change culture for Christ too.

[GOPPachyderm]

Do you KNOW John MacArthur? I can’t think you know him or anything about him to make that kind of absurd statement.

[Cyrano]

These are the sort of distinctions made by Pastors who are, indeed, ashamed that their preaching of Christ hasn't yielded any of the fruit that would indeed look very similar to the picture being painted

Wow. I wouldn't have thought it possible to miss the point of that story so completely. He's describing a society that everyone would say is good and desireable, but that has done it without God. That's the poison in Satan's plan in the story.

The mores of Christianity can be a mitigating influence in the world. And one could measure that, I suppose, though not its motivation. Similarly, one cannot measure the transformation of the heart by God's grace throygh the preaching of his Word. Only God knows that, and to put the pastor on the hook for it is going beyond the command of Scripture; it smacks of pride.