Posted on 02/10/2008 1:46:46 PM PST by wagglebee
A bishop described as "one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought" is now challenging the widely held belief that Christians go to heaven when they die.
N.T. "Tom" Wright, the fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England who has been praised for his staunch defense of the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ, has published a new book in which he says people do not ascend to God's dwelling place. Instead, God will be coming back to Earth.
"Never at any point do the Gospels or Paul say Jesus has been raised, therefore we are we are all going to heaven," Wright told Time Magazine. "I've often heard people say, 'I'm going to heaven soon, and I won't need this stupid body there, thank goodness.' That's a very damaging distortion, all the more so for being unintentional."
(Excerpt) Read more at worldnetdaily.com ...
“afterall, even today, nothing unclean can enter heaven, and when one dies, you are not immediately clean enough to enter heaven.”
Are you saying that the work on the cross is not 100% payment for your sins?
no the work is done, but the your own personal antonement, isnt.
Actually He is correct. The saved will inhabit a new earth in our new resurrected bodies . And of course we all agree that Christ will come again .
“but the your own personal antonement, isnt.”
Jesus is my personal saviour whose death is 100% atonement for my sins. I personally have a lot for which to be thankful! Those who have much debt wiped out (me) are more grateful.
right, christ atoned for your sins, but you still need purged of remaing self love, the sinful nature you carried in life, again, christ died for your sins, but that doesnt mean you are pure enuff to enter heaven.
Bishop Homer Simpson... when do the DOHS!...start..
“but you still need purged of remaing self love, the sinful nature you carried in life,”
I confidently disagree with that comment. Can you tell me where you got this idea?
The beauty is that time will tell!
YOU:
“but you still need purged of remaing self love, the sinful nature you carried in life,”
I confidently disagree with that comment. Can you tell me where you got this idea?
The beauty is that time will tell!
ME: Sure, lets start with a couple of things first, to start with, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27)
Secondly, John himself notes that there is mortal and venial type sins:
There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death” (1 John 5:16-17
(sin that DOES NOT lead to death)
So, then, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins, and that requires the purification ‘fires’ of purgatory.
“nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27)”
bigcat: OK so far....
“Secondly, John himself notes that there is mortal and venial type sins:”
bigcat: I believe you are starting to go astray.
“There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death” (1 John 5:16-17”
bigcat: Did you notice that John said “There is A sin that leads to death.”? He is talking about ONE sin, not many. There is only one “mortal” (unforgivable) sin. The Bible also gives specifics on this one sin. If God meant for there to be a half-way house between Earth and Heaven my guess is that He’d specific about it. I am unconvinced based on that verse you presented.
John also said: For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
God Bless.
so what do you say john was referring to when he said Not ALL sin leads to death...doesnt that mean there are some sins that are not deadly in terms of ones salvation?
if so, then my original point still stands.
you need to explain why john differentites sins.
So, bishop. . .just what goes on with a Christian’s spirit between the time the person physically dies and the time Jesus returns to earth? (Hint: Paul said absent from the body, present with the Lord.)
There are groups that aren't typically classified as Christians that believe this. But Christianity has historically taught that the spirit of the believer goes to be with God upon their physical death. The spirit and resurrected body are then rejoined on resurrection day. (Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He also said he was torn between staying alive so he could keep spreading the gospel, or departing this life and going to be with the Lord.)
Isn’t that what he is saying?
As best I can gather from the article, yes, this bishop appears to believe in soul sleep.
“There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death” (1 John 5:16-17”
John said that there is A sin that leads to death but other sin is forgiven and does not lead to death. Sins are forgiven through the application of John 3:16 which I posted earlier. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the one sin specifically mentioned in The Bible that in unpardonable. The exact verse where this is mentioned escapes me at the moment but you may know where it’s located.
Perhaps we can trade stories in “Purgatory” some day but I doubt highly that such a place exists.
God Bless.
no, no no, you are reading into that what john said.
YOU:
John said that there is A sin that leads to death but other sin is forgiven and does not lead to death.
John nver says that in anyway shape or form what you are intimating.
Also, you ignore the witness of the entire christian church during the first five centuries, and their witness to purgatory existing.
1. Is it a sin to not believe in Purgatory?
2. If it is a sin, is it the type that will land me in Purgatory? That would be ironic.
Like I said, perhaps we can trade stories in Purgatory some day but it’s very unlikely that it exists. Jesus wipes away all our sins and we are spotless in the eyes of God! Well, expcept that one sin talked about in Mark and alluded to in John.
God Bless.
YOU:
1. Is it a sin to not believe in Purgatory?
2. If it is a sin, is it the type that will land me in Purgatory? That would be ironic.
Like I said, perhaps we can trade stories in Purgatory some day but it’s very unlikely that it exists. Jesus wipes away all our sins and we are spotless in the eyes of God! Well, expcept that one sin talked about in Mark and alluded to in John.
God Bless.
ME: if you are a catholic, yes, it is a sin not to believe in purgatory.
and no, it wouldnt land you in purgatory, unless, you do not die in a state of grace.
as i said, if it doesnt exist, why the constant allusion to it, not only in the book of maccabees (i know, you folks dont use that book, etc), and again, the christian witness of the earliest church, the church fathers, all using the their access to sacred tradition, scripture, the church, etc....
why are there no protests counter to the concept during that time period?
“why are there no protests counter to the concept during that time period?”
How do you know this? If true perhaps the “Church” kept The Bible away from the ignorant masses. It was probably hard to form a protest when The Bible wasn’t read by very many people. You’re talking about a time when printing wasn’t invented. Maybe people didn’t care (much like today). Maybe the few people who had access to the Bible and didn’t agree with “Purgatory” were killed as heretics. Dead people don’t write history.
I disagree that there are “constant allusions” to it. Maybe I’m wrong but your first and only example was very weak. Do you have another example from the Bible? Where in The Good Book does it state that Jesus does not fully redeem believers and that additional punishment is required before acceptance to heaven? Is there a list of sins that guarantees entrance to “Purgatory” and if so where is it located?
“(i know, you folks dont use that book, etc),”
I’m just a big cat who reads The Bible, no “folks” here.
“and no, it wouldnt land you in purgatory, unless, you do not die in a state of grace.”
Yes, accepting Christ puts humans in a state of grace! That’s a huge point. Therefore there is no need for a “Purgatory”. Conversely, if there was a “Purgatory” there would be no need for Jesus Christ.
I don’t think we’ll agree on this concept but fortunately it’s probably just a side issue. God Bless you!
see, now you’re reaching....that is such an old excuse, ‘well maybe the church hid that protest away’....for over a thousand plus years to the reformation?????
you have to do better than that...
the church nver kept the bible away from anyone, in fact, it preserved it, painstakenly reproducing it by hand for generations....
accepting Christ doesnt put you in a state of grace for the rest of you life....the moment you sin, you lose that grace, hence when you die, you are not in a perfect state, so you need to have those last left over moments of selfish sin removed, before entering heaven.
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