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To: dangus; kosta50; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; fortheDeclaration; irishtenor
Frankly, the filioque issue is about the only one where I have trouble respecting the (sectarian) Orthodox view. To anathematize the West because it holds something to be true would seem to require it being demonstrated to be false.

Apparently now much of the push for ecumenicism rests on the words "from" and "through," as if they meant the same thing, when of course, they do not.

If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and through the Son, then that is tantamount to saying the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father and the Son is simply a conduit which ultimately erodes the Trinity.

Which as Rome has rightly pointed out, contradicts Scripture and many church fathers...

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." -- John 16:7


"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost" -- John 20:22


"The Athanasian Creed

"[W]e venerate one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in oneness. . . . The Father was not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding" (Athanasian Creed [A.D. 400]).  

Augustine

"If that which is given has for its principle the one by whom it is given, because it did not receive from anywhere else that which proceeds from the giver, then it must be confessed that the Father and the Son are the principle of the Holy Spirit, not two principles, but just as the Father and the Son are one God . . . relative to the Holy Spirit, they are one principle" (The Trinity 5:14:15 [A.D. 408]).

"[The one] from whom principally the Holy Spirit proceeds is called God the Father. I have added the term 'principally' because the Holy Spirit is found to proceed also from the Son" (ibid., 15:17:29).

"Why, then, should we not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from the Son, when he is the Spirit also of the Son? For if the Holy Spirit did not proceed from him, when he showed himself to his disciples after his resurrection he would not have breathed upon them, saying, 'Receive the Holy Spirit' [John 20:22]. For what else did he signify by that breathing upon them except that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from him" (Homilies on John 99:8 [A.D. 416]).  

Cyril of Alexandria

"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).

Council of Toledo

"We believe in one true God, Father and Son and Holy Spirit, maker of the visible and the invisible...The Spirit is also the Paraclete, who is himself neither the Father nor the Son, but proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, the Paraclete is not begotten but proceeding from the Father and the Son" (Council of Toledo [A.D. 447]).


937 posted on 02/01/2008 10:42:59 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; Campion; Petrosius; jo kus; dangus; HarleyD; wmfights; ...
If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and through the Son, then that is tantamount to saying the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father and the Son is simply a conduit which ultimately erodes the Trinity

You just insist on being obtuse on this issue and peddle the double-origin heresy as "Catholic" doctrine. The Catholic Church does not teach doube-origin.

Apparently, you are incapable of differentiating the concepts that deal with eternal procession of the Spirit (as regards His existence) and the tempral procession of the Spirit (as regards the Divine Economy).

The Athanasian Creed...

The Atanasian Creed is not the official Creed of the Church. Only the Symbol of of Faith (the "Creed") is, and has been repeatedly cinfirmed as such (without the Filioque) from 381 until the 11th century.

Augustine...

Blessed Augustine does not have the authoirty to proclaim dogma. You are ignoring or, more likely have no concept of, where the authority rested in the Undivded Church.

Cyril of Alexandria

Again, the same applies to +Cyril as to +Augustine.

Council of Toledo...

Council of Toledo was a local council. It cannot change official dogma; it cannot make its own for the whole Church.

Claiming that the HS originates from the Father and the Son is heresy. It is heresy because it denies the monarchy of the Father and because it degrades the Spirit to a secondary role.

And, since the Creed was written in Greek, and since the Greek text uses the word which implies the origin, it is the correct version and the only correct version. All translated versions need to adjust their Creeds to reflect the same meaning. That's how the Church received the Symbol and that's how it was confirmed in every Ecumenical Council, and is still confirmed by the Orthodox Church..

941 posted on 02/01/2008 11:38:41 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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