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To: MarkBsnr
The Apostles (and the others in the room) received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

So other people who believed that weren't at Pentecost (like myself or yourself), did they too recieve the Holy Spirit?

I posted Are you saying that unbelievers recieve the Holy Spirit?

You answered If the gift of faith is of God, and it is by His Grace alone that we believe, then you might say that.

Maybe this appears as a trick question (which isn't my intention), but if a person doesn't believe in Jesus as their savior (unbeliever) how can they recieve the Holy Spirit? I would say that only believers can recieve the Holy Spirit (based on the Bible).

I posted Are you saying that the Holy Spirit comes from baptism and not belief?

You answered The gift of faith is from God.

I don't understand your answer to my question. I'll try it a different way...

How does one recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit?
Is it through belief and baptism?
Is it through baptism then later through belief?
Is it through belief which is demonstrated through baptism?
Is baptism even required?

What is your basis for your answer?

We are instructed to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Who do you baptise? Those who profess belief or those who can't profess anything yet?

This we do; we can do no other.

That sounds all poetic and such, but the reality is that you can do whatever you choose to do. For instance, there is NO place in the Bible that shows infants being baptised, but you choose to do that. Baptism is demonstrated in the Bible as a burial and resurrection (immersion), but some choose to do it as a sprinkling.

The point is that we humans can choose to do what we want. Whether it is correct or not will ultimately be decided by God. As for me, I will choose to do the things that are in the New Testament, because that is the Gospel of Truth.
672 posted on 01/31/2008 8:58:13 AM PST by ScubieNuc (There is only ONE mediator between man and God....Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5)
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To: ScubieNuc
Maybe this appears as a trick question (which isn't my intention), but if a person doesn't believe in Jesus as their savior (unbeliever) how can they recieve the Holy Spirit? I would say that only believers can recieve the Holy Spirit (based on the Bible).

That's the problem with relying on human reason and human assumptions when trying to fathom the working of God. If you'll pardon the personal aside, I have direct experience to tell me that your statement is wrong.

I was an unbeliever, and the Holy Spirit spoke to me -- before I believed in Jesus Christ. And I can very precisely point to the moment where the Holy Spirit convinced me to believe in Jesus Christ.

I think you'll find that a lot of adult converts will tell you the same thing.

The problem with your take on things is that you're reducing God to a mechanical phenomenon -- do X, and Y occurs. But as the Bible shows time and time again, God works as He will, and not necessarily as we'd expect Him to work.

683 posted on 01/31/2008 9:51:46 AM PST by r9etb
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To: ScubieNuc

Those present in the room received the Holy Spirit at that moment. Others have received Him later. Is this what you’re after?

God bestows His Grace upon us, giving us the gift of His Spirit. How can you believe if you have not received it? If that’s not what you’re looking for, could you please rephrase?

The Holy Spirit comes to us through baptism, or the laying on of hands. Infants do not have that belief, yet we introduce them to the Holy Spirit so that His Grace can begin to work on them. Older people may have an interest, but since faith is a gift, that gift must not only be offered (from God), it must be accepted (by the baptized).

Baptism is very much required. Please see http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html for a complete Scriptural proof.

Acts 10, Acts 16 and 1 Cor 1 are all ‘household baptisms’. One presumes that the infants were present in at least one of them. Scriptures do not forbid it, and, anyway, the early Church fathers wrote in support of its practice.


709 posted on 01/31/2008 11:07:14 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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