I am making a logical inference from what Jesus said, that man does not live by bread alone but on every word from God. You can't live on God's words if you don't know them. I believe the words of God have actual power, and so I want to avail myself of that power by knowing them.
FK: When you refer to my agreeing that I "worship the Bible" you have to include the definition that we agreed upon. That is "devotion to God's word". Otherwise, readers will get confused.
But this can't be just devotion, FK. You treat the Bible as perfect, complete—by definition, divine because it is the word of God. And anything that comes from God is divine in essence, including His holy words. And that which is divine (in essence) is God and is worshiped.
If everything that comes from God is divine in essence then everything in the world is divine in essence. So, your argument falls apart since no one goes around or believes that anyone should worship everything in God's creation. My devotion is to God's word, not the pages in the Book.
The Bible says the HS will "illuminate the scriptures" to us?!?
Well sure. That's what John 14 means:
John 14:25-26 : 25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
The Holy Spirit does not teach new doctrine but shows us what Jesus has already said. Reminding includes clarification and correction.
FK: One cannot know what or how to pray without first knowing God's word.
Then Abraham could not know how to worship God!
No, he obviously learned about God and how to worship from those who came before him. That was not made up by men but given by God.
First, Christ was a Jew and He taught Judaism, which is works-based.
No, He criticized the Jews who did believe in a works-based model. What did Jesus say the work of God was??? Did Jesus get that one wrong because He suffered from the same error as many others?
Then the faith doesn't come from God, but from the Bible. Yet you believe Paul who says he knew Christ in a flash!
Faith and the Bible BOTH come from God. Paul knowing Christ also came from God. There is no contradiction.
FK: One cannot pray without first receiving God's grace. That grace will lead a believer to want to know God's word.
But a few lines before than you write: "One cannot know what or how to pray without first knowing God's word." So, now it's grace?
First comes grace. Then one learns what to have faith in. Then one has faith. The overall point is that if one prays from "nothing" then it is not going to be heard by God.
But, let's say you receive grace without the word. In other words you believe, right?
No, because what do you believe IN? Grace irresistibly leads to faith. If God sometimes gives enough of His word in a zapping of grace to save someone through immediate faith, then that's fine with me. I just don't see that as the typical case. That's all I mean.
Where does it say in the Bible that, in addition to grace (grace is not sufficient!) we need to read the Bible in order to know what to believe in?
I am not talking about literacy. I am talking about having enough information to know and CONFESS what it is that one believes. That information is contained in God's word, however it is transmitted.
He didn't say that in your Bible. He said it according to the Septuagint, which your side rejects. You have got to make up your mind. I showed you that the Hebrew Bible doesn't have the word "word" and the mouth means source. God's word is creative power, not literal words. In that sense, allegorically, everything came to be through God's "word."
I believe the words of God have actual power, and so I want to avail myself of that power by knowing them
Might as well start a burning bush and worship it, FK.
If everything that comes from God is divine in essence then everything in the world is divine in essence. So, your argument falls apart since no one goes around or believes that anyone should worship everything in God's creation.
So, then, what God makes is not perfect??? God makes imperfect things? What a sloppy "God" you believe in! No wonder people have no respect for environment.
We would say that God made everything good but, because he gave us freedom, we chose to make it corrupt, and that includes the scriptures. Were we not created in God's image and likeness, or did God create us as depraved, decrepit, evil sinners? Wait, the Reformed God would do that, of course! It all makes sense now! :)
My devotion is to God's word, not the pages in the Book.
Except that they "are" God's words because you choose to believe they are. You have no proof whatsoever that they are.
Kosta: The Bible says the HS will "illuminate the scriptures" to us?!?
FK: Well sure. That's what John 14 means: John 14:25-26 :...the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you
Just as I thought, you added the word "scriptures" to this! See how things get corrupt? It says nothing of scriptures. It doesn't specify how the HS will illuminate us.
The Holy Spirit does not teach new doctrine but shows us what Jesus has already saiThe Holy Spirit does not teach new doctrine but shows us what Jesus has already said
Except when it comes to Paul, of course. He tells us things Jesus never told others.
No, he obviously learned about God and how to worship from those who came before him. That was not made up by men but given by God.
Abraham was a paganuntil God called him. You are saying that we have pagans worshiping according to God's will? It wasn't "offensive" in those days to God to have people worship idols? This "God" of yours sure misled a lot of people for a long time!
No, He criticized the Jews who did believe in a works-based model.
The Torah contains 613 mitzvot, obligatory God's commandments, which according to you are God's very words. The Law, according to the OT, dictated to Moses by God, whom Jesus credits for writing about Him, and whom Jesus never criticizes as being wrong, instituted warks-based worship. Of course, Paul "liberated" us from such obligations instituted in the Law by God.
How could Jesus, an observant Jew, criticize the faith He did not come (or want) to change? In fact, in order to be a perfect observant Jew, He swould have had to observe all 613 commandments given in the Law. His "opposition" was to some of the people for their misinterpretation (too literal) of the Law. He never said works-based worship was wrong and pointless and unnecessary. Paul does.
What did Jesus say the work of God was???
Doing the commandments, FK. The Jews take all 613 in account. We cherry-pick only the Ten. The rest of God's commandments to Moses don't count. LOL!
Faith and the Bible BOTH come from God. Paul knowing Christ also came from God. There is no contradiction.
Faith comes from realizing that something had to create, or at least cause all this to exist, FK. It's pure reason. Scriptures and religion are a human "explanation" of this observation. But no one quotes God as saying "take this book and read it so that you may have life."
First comes grace. Then one learns what to have faith in. Then one has faith. The overall point is that if one prays from "nothing" then it is not going to be heard by God.
What is grace? And why would you want to learn what to have faith in? So, it's basically this scenario: Grace, God zapps you and you are no "like new." Then you say "I gotta believe in something but I don't know what!" LOL! :)
Kosta: But, let's say you receive grace without the word. In other words you believe, right?
FK: No, because what do you believe IN?
Love. Isn't grace unmerited love received from God? Through grace, we recognize God through love, not in some rumbling volcano or in a burning bush.
Kosta: Where does it say in the Bible that, in addition to grace (grace is not sufficient!) we need to read the Bible in order to know what to believe in?
FK: I am not talking about literacy. I am talking about having enough information to know and CONFESS what it is that one believes. That information is contained in God's word, however it is transmitted
What is it that you confess? The law and the prophets. Why, the Bible tells us it's love. Well, then, describe what Love is.