He didn't say that in your Bible. He said it according to the Septuagint, which your side rejects. You have got to make up your mind. I showed you that the Hebrew Bible doesn't have the word "word" and the mouth means source. God's word is creative power, not literal words. In that sense, allegorically, everything came to be through God's "word."
I believe the words of God have actual power, and so I want to avail myself of that power by knowing them
Might as well start a burning bush and worship it, FK.
If everything that comes from God is divine in essence then everything in the world is divine in essence. So, your argument falls apart since no one goes around or believes that anyone should worship everything in God's creation.
So, then, what God makes is not perfect??? God makes imperfect things? What a sloppy "God" you believe in! No wonder people have no respect for environment.
We would say that God made everything good but, because he gave us freedom, we chose to make it corrupt, and that includes the scriptures. Were we not created in God's image and likeness, or did God create us as depraved, decrepit, evil sinners? Wait, the Reformed God would do that, of course! It all makes sense now! :)
My devotion is to God's word, not the pages in the Book.
Except that they "are" God's words because you choose to believe they are. You have no proof whatsoever that they are.
Kosta: The Bible says the HS will "illuminate the scriptures" to us?!?
FK: Well sure. That's what John 14 means: John 14:25-26 :...the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you
Just as I thought, you added the word "scriptures" to this! See how things get corrupt? It says nothing of scriptures. It doesn't specify how the HS will illuminate us.
The Holy Spirit does not teach new doctrine but shows us what Jesus has already saiThe Holy Spirit does not teach new doctrine but shows us what Jesus has already said
Except when it comes to Paul, of course. He tells us things Jesus never told others.
No, he obviously learned about God and how to worship from those who came before him. That was not made up by men but given by God.
Abraham was a paganuntil God called him. You are saying that we have pagans worshiping according to God's will? It wasn't "offensive" in those days to God to have people worship idols? This "God" of yours sure misled a lot of people for a long time!
No, He criticized the Jews who did believe in a works-based model.
The Torah contains 613 mitzvot, obligatory God's commandments, which according to you are God's very words. The Law, according to the OT, dictated to Moses by God, whom Jesus credits for writing about Him, and whom Jesus never criticizes as being wrong, instituted warks-based worship. Of course, Paul "liberated" us from such obligations instituted in the Law by God.
How could Jesus, an observant Jew, criticize the faith He did not come (or want) to change? In fact, in order to be a perfect observant Jew, He swould have had to observe all 613 commandments given in the Law. His "opposition" was to some of the people for their misinterpretation (too literal) of the Law. He never said works-based worship was wrong and pointless and unnecessary. Paul does.
What did Jesus say the work of God was???
Doing the commandments, FK. The Jews take all 613 in account. We cherry-pick only the Ten. The rest of God's commandments to Moses don't count. LOL!
Faith and the Bible BOTH come from God. Paul knowing Christ also came from God. There is no contradiction.
Faith comes from realizing that something had to create, or at least cause all this to exist, FK. It's pure reason. Scriptures and religion are a human "explanation" of this observation. But no one quotes God as saying "take this book and read it so that you may have life."
First comes grace. Then one learns what to have faith in. Then one has faith. The overall point is that if one prays from "nothing" then it is not going to be heard by God.
What is grace? And why would you want to learn what to have faith in? So, it's basically this scenario: Grace, God zapps you and you are no "like new." Then you say "I gotta believe in something but I don't know what!" LOL! :)
Kosta: But, let's say you receive grace without the word. In other words you believe, right?
FK: No, because what do you believe IN?
Love. Isn't grace unmerited love received from God? Through grace, we recognize God through love, not in some rumbling volcano or in a burning bush.
Kosta: Where does it say in the Bible that, in addition to grace (grace is not sufficient!) we need to read the Bible in order to know what to believe in?
FK: I am not talking about literacy. I am talking about having enough information to know and CONFESS what it is that one believes. That information is contained in God's word, however it is transmitted
What is it that you confess? The law and the prophets. Why, the Bible tells us it's love. Well, then, describe what Love is.
He didn't say that in your Bible. He said it according to the Septuagint, which your side rejects. You have got to make up your mind.
My mind has never changed, and He certainly DID say that in my Bible. I do not have to accept the Septuagint in its entirety to accept what Jesus said. In most cases the Septuagint and the MT agree. You appear to try to be painting a picture that the two texts are wholly incompatible when that just isn't the case. The quibbling you are doing over the word "word" is so minor it makes no difference. It's a non-issue, as the context makes clear.
FK: If everything that comes from God is divine in essence then everything in the world is divine in essence. So, your argument falls apart since no one goes around or believes that anyone should worship everything in God's creation.
So, then, what God makes is not perfect??? God makes imperfect things? What a sloppy "God" you believe in! No wonder people have no respect for environment.
Where do you see that in my post? God makes what He makes perfect for its intended purposes. God made the rocks He made perfectly according to His design, but He does not want us to worship them. Rocks are not divine.
Were we not created in God's image and likeness, or did God create us as depraved, decrepit, evil sinners? Wait, the Reformed God would do that, of course! It all makes sense now! :)
God did not create Adam's sin, but He did allow it to corrupt all men since. So, the fact that we are totally depraved when born is not on God.
Except that they "are" God's words because you choose to believe they are. You have no proof whatsoever that they are.
I cannot prove anything to one who is already predisposed and committed to believing the reverse. In those cases facts are irrelevant.
FK: Well sure. That's what John 14 means: John 14:25-26 :...the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Just as I thought, you added the word "scriptures" to this! See how things get corrupt? It says nothing of scriptures. It doesn't specify how the HS will illuminate us.
So, your reasoning process says that illuminating the scriptures IS NOT included with "all things" nor reminding people of what Christ said??? OK.
Except when it comes to Paul, of course. He tells us things Jesus never told others.
You can't possibly know that. You must know that not everything Jesus ever said appears in the Gospels. Paul wrote some things that do not specifically appear elsewhere in the Bible, but so what? The few and selected red letter verses that you only accept are not the whole revelation.
How could Jesus, an observant Jew, criticize the faith He did not come (or want) to change?
He criticized the Pharisees and others who misapplied the faith by following a works-in-exchange-for-Heaven model. The faith that God handed down in the OT was never about earned salvation regardless of how many Jews followed it then or how many Christians follow it today.
His "opposition" was to some of the people for their misinterpretation (too literal) of the Law. He never said works-based worship was wrong and pointless and unnecessary. Paul does.
Your logic seems to be that if Jesus didn't say something specifically in the words you "need" to hear, then He must necessarily have endorsed its opposite. That's just nonsense. What Jesus DID specifically say was that the work of God was to believe, not to earn points through works.
FK: First comes grace. Then one learns what to have faith in. Then one has faith. The overall point is that if one prays from "nothing" then it is not going to be heard by God.
What is grace?
Well, many whole books have been written about what grace is, but in this case I am talking about saving grace. I would say that is that certain gift from God that regenerates a man, infallibly causing him to come to faith, in the cases of those of the age of reason.
And why would you want to learn what to have faith in?
Because otherwise one's faith is blind, baseless, and pointless, since it is not in anything real. If I announced that I suddenly had true faith in a head of lettuce and you asked me why, I don't think you would be very impressed if I just told you there was no reason, since my true faith was blind and baseless.
FK: No, because what do you believe IN?
Love. Isn't grace unmerited love received from God? Through grace, we recognize God through love, not in some rumbling volcano or in a burning bush.
So if anyone loves anyone then you would call that person a true believer?
What is it that you confess? The law and the prophets. Why, the Bible tells us it's love. Well, then, describe what Love is.
I am unaware of where the Bible says to blindly confess generic love in "anything" for salvation. We confess our knowing faith in Christ. It is specific.