I acknowledge that it is POSSIBLE for the uses of "want" and "need" to bleed into each other, however I am obviously talking about normal usage in the English language. I was defending an attack against Reformed theology asserting that God has need of evil. In common usage, one reasonable conclusion would be that the Reformed believe that God is subservient to some invented "need" for evil, so, I had to reveal the fallacy of that assertion. I understood that the intent of the attack was semantic, and so I defended accordingly. No problem.
FK: ***However, it is clear that He wants us to be here, else He would not have created, and that He wants to save His elect to be with Him in Heaven.***
Clarify if you would, with the logic just demonstrated, how the elect is not defined as the entire human population. If you would, please.
Certainly! :) Here are a few passages:
Rom 8:28-30 : 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Are there others besides the elect who are foreknown, predestined, conformed to the likeness of Christ, called, justified, and glorified? I just don't think so.)
Matt 24:22-24 : 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect — if that were possible. (Clearly Jesus teaches that some are elect and some are not.)
Rom 11:7 : What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. (Obviously drawing a distinction between the unrighteous Jews and the elect.)
Titus 1:1 : Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— (Only God's elect have [true] faith.)
Isa 45:4 : For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. KJV (Only "Israel" is God's elect.)
Isa 65:9 : And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. KJV (Only the elect WILL inherit from God. We know not everyone does.)
1 Peter 1:1-2 : 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. KJV (The elect are not everyone, they are strangers to the world and chosen by God from the foundations.)
There simply can be no argument that the Bible clearly distinguishes between the elect and all men.
FK: ***Of course God wants us to understand. Why else would He bother to communicate with us (if you believe that He does)? I want my dog to understand content to the best of his capability. Why would God want less for us?***
We are not dogs. God wants for all mankind to love Him with all our hearts, minds and souls. Dogs cannot. God gives us the ability to understand and the information to understand. (emphasis added)
Yes, God gives this ability to the elect. At the least you and I agree that God desires for and does in fact give us understanding. I read Kosta to be arguing against that idea.
If your dog does not wish to understand or is incapable, do you whip out your .44 magnum and blow his head off?
Not yet, for it does not please me.
To carry the analogy to the next level, why would God do the figurative same to us if we cannot understand Him or love Him as He wishes?
As I foreshadowed, comparatively what matters are God's choices, not our performances. God gives saving grace to His sheep, but not all are His sheep. He knows that there is nothing the non-sheep can do, but those were His wishes anyway. Those are His affairs and I do not question Him. My response is to be VERY thankful and VERY sheepish. :)
***I acknowledge that it is POSSIBLE for the uses of “want” and “need” to bleed into each other, however I am obviously talking about normal usage in the English language.***
I’d wander past ‘possible’ and over in the ‘certain’ aisle.
***I was defending an attack against Reformed theology asserting that God has need of evil.***
It was no attack; it was a description. Reformed theology requires evil. Proof?
“God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WCF, III.I).
God ordained whatsoever comes to pass in Reformed theology. Whatsoever means ‘everything’. Everything that there was, is and will be.
God has always existed. God created everything. If the Reformed God created everything and ordained everything, then He created and ordained evil. The second part of the paragraph:
yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin
is merely backpedalling and attempting to negate portions of the first part.
***Rom 8:28-30 : 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Are there others besides the elect who are foreknown, predestined, conformed to the likeness of Christ, called, justified, and glorified? I just don’t think so.)***
Predestination to heaven does NOT imply predestination to hell, especially since it is never ever written down in Scripture anywhere.
***Matt 24:22-24 : 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect — if that were possible. (Clearly Jesus teaches that some are elect and some are not.)***
http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/E/ELECT/ says that:
Otherwise, and prevalently in the New Testament, it denotes a human community, also described as believers, saints, the Israel of God; regarded as in some sense selected by Him from among men, objects of His special favor, and correspondingly called to special holiness and service.
It most certainly does not say that anyone is predestined to hell or even imply it. It says that these elect are called to special holiness and service. A John the Baptist or Mother Teresa, say.
***There simply can be no argument that the Bible clearly distinguishes between the elect and all men.***
The definitions are at odds with Scripture.
***If your dog does not wish to understand or is incapable, do you whip out your .44 magnum and blow his head off?
Not yet, for it does not please me.***
I hope that you are joking here.
***To carry the analogy to the next level, why would God do the figurative same to us if we cannot understand Him or love Him as He wishes?
As I foreshadowed, comparatively what matters are God’s choices, not our performances. God gives saving grace to His sheep, but not all are His sheep. He knows that there is nothing the non-sheep can do, but those were His wishes anyway. Those are His affairs and I do not question Him. My response is to be VERY thankful and VERY sheepish. :)***
John 10:
14
I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me,
15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep.
16
I have other sheep 7 that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Jesus comes for all men. The flock that He has are the believers - His mission (which he has passed on to us) is to go and get all men and bring them into His flock.
If those were His wishes than God is a partner with the devil according to the reformed because it is would be a sacrifice to create a soul for hell.Spin it all you want,but it is exactly that!
I can see clearly that this type of theology would lead the poor and people with hardship to think that they are of the non elect and lead to despair.
I am convinced that John Calvin was of satan for starting this type of theology and I actually get a chill whenever I see a picture of calvin,a very evil man by his own free will did not love our Lord,but rather his own mind and a book(the Bible) to which the Holy Spirit did not lead him to interpret. He did it his own selfish self seeking calvin way