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To: stfassisi; kosta50; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg
FK: “”Would Archbishop Sheen call an amoeba in a petri dish “free”? It really depends on how you look at it doesn't it?””

You're forgetting that God gave man power to rule over moving things and animals. It is the freedom of Man who took the freedom away from the amoeba by putting it in a petri dish and enslaving it outside of its environment.

You're making my point. Man has the power to determine the amoeba's freedom and God has the power to determine ours. Which is the greater gulf, amoeba to man or man to God? That is, who has the greater authority? If you agree with me that the answer is God, then that would be evidence against those who argue that man's freedom is absolute to the extent of determining one's own destiny. Man, with far far less power completely determines the destiny of the amoeba in a petri dish.

FK-””Man has varying levels of freedom within the parameters that God sets.””

Perhaps you can explain what these levels are?

Sure. The basics are that man as born is dead in sin. He is free to sin but he is not free to do good in God's eyes. However, once a man believes and is sealed by the Holy Spirit, then he has a new freedom that includes doing good in God's eyes. At this point he retains the freedom to sin. Finally, when man is glorified and admitted into Heaven, he loses the freedom to sin. Of course, throughout all of this, no freedom of man ever trumps God's will at a particular time. God's Holy plan is higher than man's freedom, whether to do good or evil.

Man certainly has freedom to enslave himself by cursing God,committing adultery ,aborting babies etc....

Yes, but not over and above God's will.

Can you name some things that man is NOT free to do within the bounds of physical laws of nature?

Yes. A lost person is not free to do anything that would please God. And, a saved person is not free to do anything that would cause him to lose his salvation (a theoretical possibility but for God's promises). Finally, no one is ever free to do anything in contradiction to God's plan. There are zillions of examples in each category.

“Freedom that ignores the transcendent difference between good and evil ends in the denial of freedom itself.” -Fulton J. Sheen

Sounds cool, but it sure ain't Biblical. :) God defines what is good and what is evil, and God determines what freedoms man has and when.

5,986 posted on 05/30/2008 9:57:34 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; MarkBsnr
FK-””You're making my point. Man has the power to determine the amoeba's freedom and God has the power to determine ours.
Which is the greater gulf, amoeba to man or man to God?””

I'm not making your point,you're talking Apples and Oranges,Dear Brother!

An amoeba is not made in the image and likeness of God and Man with the ability to love and know moral good and evil.

FK-””However, once a man believes and is sealed by the Holy Spirit, then he has a new freedom that includes doing good in God's eyes. At this point he retains the freedom to sin..””

Presto! Just believe you're sealed and it must be true.Please,FK!

So,by this analogy man determines that he is sealed by the Holy Spirit by just believing it.

Does this mean it's ok to sin now that you're sealed and have already determined for yourself that you have been selected to be in heaven?

Sounds like you have taken away God's power to Judge you when you die by just believing you're sealed you must be guaranteed heaven

FK-””A lost person is not free to do anything that would please God. And, a saved person is not free to do anything that would cause him to lose his salvation””

Here you go again,FK. We don't know if we are the lost or the saved,we are going to be judged at the end of our lives.

Salvation is an ongoing process that can be lost

From scripturecatholic.com
1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.

1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.

Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.

5,991 posted on 05/31/2008 8:18:18 AM PDT by stfassisi ( ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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