***We’ve explained that it’s not the free pass you guys make it out to be, but nobody listens. POTS teaches that God will prevent His children from committing sin SUCH THAT it would cause the loss of salvation. It IS theoretically possible to lose salvation, but God promises it won’t happen.***
You’ve explained it, but it still doesn’t make sense or have theological proofs.
***Either God would prevent it by changing my mind, or He would take me out before I took anyone else out***
Back to God the puppet master (sigh). In other words, you still have no responsibility for anything you do or don’t do.
***No one can know who the elect and the unelect are, save God.***
Hold on now. I have been told here on FR by a number of the Reformed that they are most definitely of the elect and therefore are going to Heaven and there’s nothing that anyone can do about that. Is this a different branch of Reformed theology?
***Actions do matter.***
How?
***God is glorified because they are used to fulfill His purpose, such as at the crucifixion.***
How were people used to fulfill His purpose at the crucifixion? I thought that Christ Himself was crucified. I guess I’m not understanding this. Could you clarify please?
***Perhaps some believe that the crucifixion was just a wild coincidence that happened to work out so that we could be saved.***
A strange belief indeed. I’m not aware of anyone who believes this.
You’ve explained it, but it still doesn’t make sense or have theological proofs.
For one thing, it should make sense given that the Spirit is clearly defined many times as a SEAL. A seal by God is unbreakable by anyone unworthy, as the Book of Revelation tells us. Therefore, we can surmise that none of us is worthy to break such a seal. Yet, Apostolics say that any man can break God's seal with simple disobedience. That doesn't match scripture. In addition, we have these (among others):
1 Peter 1:3-9 : 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade — kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith — of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire — may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Phil 1:4-6 : 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
John 10:28-29 : 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
Rom 11:28-29 : 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
These sound pretty solid to me.
FK: ***No one can know who the elect and the unelect are, save God.***
Hold on now. I have been told here on FR by a number of the Reformed that they are most definitely of the elect and therefore are going to Heaven and there’s nothing that anyone can do about that. Is this a different branch of Reformed theology?
No. :) Those same Reformed will tell you the same as I will. We CAN know about ourselves, but that is it. We cannot know who the whole group of the elect is. Therefore, vis-a-vis US as individuals, the whole rest of the world is a mission field. So, while I am sure about myself, I cannot be "as sure" about my own beautiful bride, although I really, really, really, really, really "think" she is of the elect. :) I would also guess that the Pope is among the elect, although I can't be sure because I can't KNOW his heart. I can only KNOW my heart. This is what I think the "Judge not" passage is really all about.
FK: ***Actions do matter.***
How?
Because God requires that things actually happen within time. We could not be saved if God only supposed that Jesus die on the cross. It had to actually happen for it to be real and "count". It is the same for belief (for you baptism) within time for salvation. It's not theoretical, it has to really happen. Likewise, when God uses us to further faith in others via our witnessing, it HAS to happen, so these actions matter.
In addition, consider works. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. Very true. Therefore, works done within time DO matter. You and I disagree on the surrounding mechanics and such, but I think we agree that works matter.
FK: ***God is glorified because they are used to fulfill His purpose, such as at the crucifixion.***
How were people used to fulfill His purpose at the crucifixion? I thought that Christ Himself was crucified. I guess I’m not understanding this. Could you clarify please?
Sure. We start with the premise that God wanted to save His elect, and Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was the method by which this could be accomplished. From there it would take great sin to put an innocent man to death. So, how did God guarantee that His will would be accomplished through Christ dying on the cross? He withdrew from the key players who were necessary, such as Judas, Pilate, Caiaphus, Herod, the lost Jews, the Romans, and others. All were necessary for this to take place exactly as God wanted it. So God withdrew from them more so than other lost people, and left them to the nature they were born with, a nature that hates God. God had no duty to maintain them, so He withdrew from them in order to use them to fulfill His plan. God's love was so strong that He was determined to save His elect, and so in this way nothing was left to chance.
FK: ***Perhaps some believe that the crucifixion was just a wild coincidence that happened to work out so that we could be saved.***
A strange belief indeed. I’m not aware of anyone who believes this.
That's good. Then could you explain that if God does not interfere with anyone's free will, how was the crucifixion not a matter of chance? God's foreknowledge is no answer since, by definition, He would already be an active part of any such foreknowledge. OR, IF foreknowledge is your answer could you explain some of the mechanics of how it works? For example, did God "wait" for conditions to be "just so" before He decided to send Jesus to earth? If so, then it would still be a matter of chance.