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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
“”If intellectually you think that still makes us puppets, then I am just fine to be God's puppet, knowing that His love is in control of my life. (My experience is the same either way.) I don't want God to leave me on my own to go through this life. I need Him to be in charge. I am not my own, I was bought at a price.””

If God controlled you 100%,than you would have to be sinless from the point God controlled you, or the controlling God would own your sin as the puppet master.

Your sin is your own,FK, like it or not ,and you need do do penance for it as well.

Pope PAUL VI explains this well

” Every sin in fact causes a perturbation in the universal order established by God in His ineffable wisdom and infinite charity, and the destruction of immense values with respect to the sinner himself and to the human community. Christians throughout history have always regarded sin not only as a transgression of divine law but also—though not always in a direct and evident way—as contempt for or disregard of the friendship between God and man, (6) just as they have regarded it as a real and unfathomable offense against God and indeed an ungrateful rejection of the love of God shown us through Jesus Christ, who called his disciples friends and not servants. (7)

3. It is therefore necessary for the full remission and—as it is called—reparation of sins not only that friendship with God be reestablished by a sincere conversion of the mind and amends made for the offense against his wisdom and goodness, but also that all the personal as well as social values and those of the universal order itself, which have been diminished or destroyed by sin, be fully reintegrated whether through voluntary reparation which will involve punishment or through acceptance of the punishments established by the just and most holy wisdom of God, from which there will shine forth throughout the world the sanctity and the splendor of his glory. The very existence and the gravity of the punishment enable us to understand the foolishness and malice of sin and its harmful consequences.”

6. Cf. Isaiah 1:2-3. Also cf. Deut. 8:11 and 32:15 and ff.; Ps. 105:21 and 118 and other places; Wis. 7:14; Isaiah 17:10 and 44:21; Jer. 33:8; Ez. 20:27. Cf. Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution Dei Verbum on Divine Revelation, no. 2: “Hac itaque...eamque suscipiat” (A.A.S. 58, 1966, p. 818). Cf. also ibid., n. 21 (loc. cit., p. 827-828).

7. Cf. John 15:14-15. Cf. Vatican II, Pastoral Constitution Gaudium et Spes on the Church in the Modern World, n. 22 (A.A.S. 58, 1966, p. 1042) and the Decree Ad Gentes Divinitus on the Missionary Activity of the Church, n. 13 (A.A.S. 58, 1966, p. 962).

5,613 posted on 05/16/2008 11:06:29 PM PDT by stfassisi ( ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: stfassisi; Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
FK: If intellectually you think that still makes us puppets, then I am just fine to be God's puppet, knowing that His love is in control of my life. (My experience is the same either way.) I don't want God to leave me on my own to go through this life

STA: If God controlled you 100%,than you would have to be sinless from the point God controlled you, or the controlling God would own your sin as the puppet master

Indeed, dear brother, if they could only be so lucky as to be completely controlled by God! As you say, they would be without sin—unless, of course, God is the source of our sin too!

This Protestant notion that they are hijacked by the Holy Spirit is a feel-good, man-made delusion. It "justifies" men in their own eyes.

5,617 posted on 05/17/2008 8:40:19 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: stfassisi; Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
Pope PAUL VI explains this well ”Every sin in fact causes a perturbation in the universal order established by God in His ineffable wisdom and infinite charity, and the destruction of immense values with respect to the sinner himself and to the human community."

Indeed. Sin distorts the entire creation. It is unfathomable that God built a good world and then decided to shake everything just so he can put it back together as a manifestation of His own glory! Yet our Protestant friends believe just that.

"Christians throughout history have always regarded sin not only as a transgression of divine law but also—though not always in a direct and evident way—as contempt for or disregard of the friendship between God and man "

Indeed. In the Orthodox tradition, the confession begins with "I confess to God, before you, venerable father (priest, as our witness), that I have sinned out of ingratitude to God...

We don't see sin in legal terms; you seed, you get a ticket, you pay the fine and you are free. I don't think anything describes sin better than ingratitude.

Ingratitude to the loved ones requires much more than penance. It hurts, it burns, it brings tears to our eyes; it makes one wish he were dead.

5,620 posted on 05/17/2008 8:58:15 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: stfassisi; kosta50; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
If God controlled you 100%,than you would have to be sinless from the point God controlled you, or the controlling God would own your sin as the puppet master.

I said "IN control", which is a different idea from God pushing a button and all things happen. God does not push a button and then sin happens. There are no "sin buttons". If anything, God DOESN'T push a button and the inevitable result is sin. That makes us responsible for our own sins, since God has no duty to push the button that would protect us. Sometimes God chooses to push the button that protects us, but sometimes He doesn't.

Your sin is your own,FK, like it or not ,and you need to do penance for it as well.

My sin IS my own and with it I am doomed to hell. Thankfully Christ chose to pay for all of my sins that I might be saved. As far as post-salvation sins, I should confess them, and God is there and meets out punishment as He sees fit. Dealing with sin against God is God's department, not man's.

5,668 posted on 05/19/2008 12:58:10 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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