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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; Dr. Eckleburg
Given that Muslims and Jews use the OT as well, we must be on the same sheet of music? Yet, two out of three OT readers reject Christ! If Christ is "all over" the OT, as you say, they sure missed Him!

Yes, they sure did miss Him. Should that tell us that the OT is wrong or that they are wrong? I don't think we can measure the truth of something by how many people DON'T get it. The Bible tells us in no uncertain terms that NO ONE will get any of it unless he has been given eyes to see and ears to hear by God.

The Gospels reveal God that we can grasp and see. It is more than God who covered Himself with flesh; it's something completely unexpected, unprecedented: it is God actually becoming flesh, lowering Himself, out of love for mankind, to our level and suffering and dying for our sins.

Yes, and the OT tells us about this:

Isa 52:13-53:12 : 13 See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. 14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him — his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness — 15 so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see,and what they have not heard, they will understand.

Isaiah 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days,and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

IMO this OT passage perfectly describes what you are talking about. (And as an aside, note verse 10! :)

The truths of the Gospels, as a narrative of Jesus' ministry, holds true with or without the OT. Otherwise, Christ's work is insufficient. The Gospels by themselves are sufficient for Christianity, but the other books in the NT and those in the OT put it in perspective.

Ah, but since hundreds of millions of Christians read the Gospels very faithfully and see no need for the rulership of the Orthodox Church in them, then I suppose that your Church would be unneeded for Christianity, like the OT? :)

5,503 posted on 05/12/2008 4:22:35 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi

“...the rulership of the Orthodox Church....”

The what??????????????


5,504 posted on 05/12/2008 4:24:29 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; ...
Yes, they sure did miss Him. Should that tell us that the OT is wrong or that they are wrong? I don't think we can measure the truth of something by how many people DON'T get it

But we can measure the truth by how many people claim they get something? Every sect and cult can (and does) use your argument, fallaciously I might add.

The Bible tells us in no uncertain terms that NO ONE will get any of it unless he has been given eyes to see and ears to hear by God

Again, an open argument for anyone to use. Everyone claims to have the "right" eyes and ears and inner knowledge (gnosis) others can't see or hear.

Isa 52:13-53:12 : 13 See, my servant will act wisely

Who is Isaiah's servant in context?

For what they were not told, they will see,and what they have not heard, they will understand.

For what they were not told, they will see,and what they have not heard, they will understand

Seems to me isaiah's is saying that one doesn't eyes and ears in order to understand.

IMO this OT passage perfectly describes what you are talking about. (And as an aside, note verse [Isa 53:]10!

Again, in context, who is Isaiah talking about?

Ah, but since hundreds of millions of Christians read the Gospels very faithfully and see no need for the rulership of the Orthodox Church in them, then I suppose that your Church would be unneeded for Christianity, like the OT?

So, the Church is wrong but inidvidual readers, who read gospels "faitfully," get it right? What evidence do you have for such a silly claim?

5,506 posted on 05/12/2008 5:18:39 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50

***Ah, but since hundreds of millions of Christians read the Gospels very faithfully and see no need for the rulership of the Orthodox Church in them, then I suppose that your Church would be unneeded for Christianity, like the OT? :)***

My friend, it’s not about what individuals see any need for. It is about what God sees need for. God saw a need for His Church and Christ founded it and the Holy Spirit commissioned it.

On another thread, there was an individual who claimed that he is the Church of Christ. It is that level of hubris that motivates individual men to create their own theologies and their own churches. If Jesus created the Church, how does it seem reasonable to reject it, but claim to follow Him?


5,519 posted on 05/12/2008 5:31:50 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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