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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; ...
Where does the Bible say that Jesus is equal to the Father? FK: Here are a few...John [...John...and more John...]

And yet no one believed Him, not even the Apostles! Acts 1 tells us they did not consider Him to be equal to the Father but someone who would restore the Kingdom of Israel )Jewish messiah), and He also says the exact timing is known but to the Father.

Obviously this is not being "one." We know for sure that John's Gospel was written after the other Gospels and after all the other books of the NT were written. John's Gospel stresses something no other book of the NT stresses, Jesus' divinity, and even then no one except for John, at the end of the first century, states that Jesus said He and Father were one! No one else bothered to record that! How gullible can one be, FK?

Besides, Jesus leaves no doubt that "being one" is not the same as "equal." You yourself quote John 17:11 where Jesus is quoted as saying "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name — the name you gave me — so that they may be one as we are one."

Are we "one" with Jesus and does that mean we are equal to Jesus? Of course not! being one is not the same as being equal. That much is abundantly clear. But Jesus specifically states on more than on occasion that the Father is greater then all and even greater that He (Jesus).

Phil 2:5-11 : 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God [sic] exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow

This is how the original Greek text reads (my mephases):

Obviously, the punctuation marks are missing and it depends where you place then how you will read it. More importantly, your NIV version erroneously states "Who, being in very nature God" where there is no "nature" [Greek: physis] mentioned in the text. Paul actually says form (morphi) of God. In other words, an appearance of God.

The NIV you use is falsely creating the impression that Paul considered Jesus to be, by nature divine, but this is not what Paul wrote.

This is supported by the fact that Paul also says "therefore God [sic] exalted him to the highest place. If God has to exalt Him then Jesus is not God in Paul's eyes, but–as Paul calls Him—the anointed [ Greek: christos] Jesus.

This is very consistent wiht the early Christian writing, including the Gospels (not counting the end of the century Gospel of John), in that Jesus was considered a Jewish messiah, a human anointed by God who will restore the Kingdom of Israel (what the Jews called, and still do, the "Kingdom of God").

and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The word "lord" [Gr: kyrios] is a title given to God, kings and generally people above you in any ranking, whom you serve. What this chapter says is that Gods appointed Jesus to be above all humans and that He is God's faithful and anointed servant that all should respect because He is His special representative.

5,474 posted on 05/09/2008 9:07:55 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; Dr. Eckleburg
Acts 1 tells us they did not consider Him to be equal to the Father but someone who would restore the Kingdom of Israel )Jewish messiah), and He also says the exact timing is known but to the Father. Obviously this is not being "one."

That looks like yet another forced interpretation for the sole purpose of discrediting the scriptures. If Christ did not know the exact timing, then He is not omniscient and is not God. It obviously must be interpreted otherwise, such as from His human nature. ...... To many of us the idea of them being "One" is not contradictory at all. Jesus as man did things like pray to the Father. Jesus as God and the Father as God were ONE.

Besides, Jesus leaves no doubt that "being one" is not the same as "equal." You yourself quote John 17:11 where Jesus is quoted as saying "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name — the name you gave me — so that they may be one as we are one." Are we "one" with Jesus and does that mean we are equal to Jesus? Of course not! being one is not the same as being equal.

What? For someone who spends as much time as you do criticizing scripture as being mostly allegory (and therefore factually false), you sure also spend a lot of time taking everything literally when you want to prove theological inconsistencies in scripture. :) I call that very convenient selectivity. Your mission appears clear. :) Jesus is OBVIOUSLY not asking for the Father to transform our essence into His own. He is asking that believers become one in the purity of faith, seeking to do God's work, all having full devotion to God, etc.

This is how the original Greek text reads (my emphases):

You mean, that's how it reads from Greek as translated by someone you like. :) And that's fine.

Obviously, the punctuation marks are missing and it depends where you place then how you will read it. More importantly, your NIV version erroneously states "Who, being in very nature God" where there is no "nature" [Greek: physis] mentioned in the text. Paul actually says form (morphi) of God. In other words, an appearance of God.

If you wish to believe that the Bible (outside of John) does not teach that Jesus is God, then you are welcome to do so. I would suggest that you would be in the highest minority of Christians who think that. Most Christians, IMO, see Christ as God throughout the scriptures.

5,500 posted on 05/11/2008 2:43:00 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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