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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; Dr. Eckleburg
Acts 1 tells us they did not consider Him to be equal to the Father but someone who would restore the Kingdom of Israel )Jewish messiah), and He also says the exact timing is known but to the Father. Obviously this is not being "one."

That looks like yet another forced interpretation for the sole purpose of discrediting the scriptures. If Christ did not know the exact timing, then He is not omniscient and is not God. It obviously must be interpreted otherwise, such as from His human nature. ...... To many of us the idea of them being "One" is not contradictory at all. Jesus as man did things like pray to the Father. Jesus as God and the Father as God were ONE.

Besides, Jesus leaves no doubt that "being one" is not the same as "equal." You yourself quote John 17:11 where Jesus is quoted as saying "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name — the name you gave me — so that they may be one as we are one." Are we "one" with Jesus and does that mean we are equal to Jesus? Of course not! being one is not the same as being equal.

What? For someone who spends as much time as you do criticizing scripture as being mostly allegory (and therefore factually false), you sure also spend a lot of time taking everything literally when you want to prove theological inconsistencies in scripture. :) I call that very convenient selectivity. Your mission appears clear. :) Jesus is OBVIOUSLY not asking for the Father to transform our essence into His own. He is asking that believers become one in the purity of faith, seeking to do God's work, all having full devotion to God, etc.

This is how the original Greek text reads (my emphases):

You mean, that's how it reads from Greek as translated by someone you like. :) And that's fine.

Obviously, the punctuation marks are missing and it depends where you place then how you will read it. More importantly, your NIV version erroneously states "Who, being in very nature God" where there is no "nature" [Greek: physis] mentioned in the text. Paul actually says form (morphi) of God. In other words, an appearance of God.

If you wish to believe that the Bible (outside of John) does not teach that Jesus is God, then you are welcome to do so. I would suggest that you would be in the highest minority of Christians who think that. Most Christians, IMO, see Christ as God throughout the scriptures.

5,500 posted on 05/11/2008 2:43:00 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; ...
That looks like yet another forced interpretation for the sole purpose of discrediting the scriptures

Pure speculation. I could say the same in reverse when people try to rationalize any discrepancy just to prove what they already believe.

If Christ did not know the exact timing, then He is not omniscient and is not God

Christ never says "I am God." He does say that the knowledge of when Israel shall be restored is known but to the Father. He also, elsewhere, hints that the generation shall not pass before His return and that many of those who are living as he speaks shall not taste death before His return. So, in a way He is hinting that it is within a lifetime of some of His disciples, but He doesn't specify the date.

It obviously must be interpreted otherwise, such as from His human nature.

He had no problems knowing other things prophetically in His human nature. The Bible says, He had two natures and two wills, not two minds.

Jesus as man did things like pray to the Father

If you think about it, Jesus as man would also be praying to Himself, being God. You do admit that He knew He is God, or do you think Jesus the Man was unaware of that?

Assuming He knew, then in His human nature, He would rightly worship Himself as well as the Father, and the Holy Spirit. But He doesn't. Neither do the Apostles until the very end (Mat 28:17), and then only some. So, even His Apostles (the 11 remaining) doubted His divinity at the moment of the Great Commission (maybe that's why we don't have the writings of all eleven!).

To the best of my knowledge, there is not a single instance in the entire New Testament where the Apostles actually pray to Jesus! Even +John, who explicitly, unlike the rest, calls Him God, doesn't pray to the Resurrected Christ.

For someone who spends as much time as you do criticizing scripture as being mostly allegory (and therefore factually false), you sure also spend a lot of time taking everything literally when you want to prove theological inconsistencies in scripture

At least I read simple sentences literally. I read the story of Jonah living in the belly of a fish for three days allegorically. With Protestants, it seems just the reverse.

is OBVIOUSLY not asking for the Father to transform our essence into His own. He is asking that believers become one in the purity of faith, seeking to do God's work, all having full devotion to God, etc

Then He is not speaking in His human nature, as you claim, since human nature (essence) cannot be "one" with the divine nature of the Father.

And if He is speaking in His divine nature, than His saying that "the Father is greater than I" has unbelievable ramification!

You mean, that's how it reads from Greek as translated by someone you like.

No, that's how the original text was written; no punctuation marks. And the word "morphi" means "form," not "nature," as your NIV version says.

Most Christians, IMO, see Christ as God throughout the scriptures

And that makes it "right" by fiat? We need proof, not just mutual agreement. Patting ourselves on the back does not constitute proof, FK.

By your logic, when we establish that the vast majority of Jews and Muslims don't see Christ as God throughout the scriptures means they are right? Popular consensus is not a proof that something is factually true or untrue.

5,501 posted on 05/11/2008 8:55:10 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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