[aruanan]

You're starting to look desperate and a bit like one of the characters from the final chapters of The Last battle.

Yet the Hebrew Bible simply states verse 24 with four words (one is a repeat):
Chanok halak 'elohiym 'elohiym laqach or, literally "Enoch walked God God took"
How does one come up with a whole sentence with that is beyond me.

Because languages are different, as in Greek in which one can say "to the women who departed" using a single word.


More importantly, John 3:13 states
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Either +John didn't know about Enoch or he didn 't read it as the author of Hebrews did.

Or what Jesus referred to as "heaven" was something else and doesn't have anything to do with Enoch's "translation".


Also according to Genesis, Enoch is the sixth generation of Adam; but in another place he is placed in the seventh:
It was also about these men that (A)Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam [Jude 14] So, we have genealogical problems...again (like those of Matthew and Luke)?

No problems. Telescoping of generations is common as is referring to an ancestor more than once removed as a father.


In addition, Romans 5:12 and Hebrews 9:27 say that everyone must die.

And yet Paul says that not everyone will die but that we will all be changed. And Hebrews doesn't say that everyone "must" die. It simply says that it's given to man but once to die and then face judgment. I guess by what you're saying Lazarus and others that Jesus raised from the dead must either have not "really" died, or must still be alive today and leading sinless immortal lives, or that the stories are just incorrect because Romans 5:12 and Hebrews say "that everyone must die."


So when you say that Enoch is a stand-alone statement and you believe it because it is scripture, you choose to ignore a whole lot of scripture to the contrary.
No, since scripture does not authenticate the Book of Enoch as being God-breathed. Hebrews is so authenticated
Jude is quoting from the Book of Enoch and Jude is scripture, FK. Or is it not scripture on Thursdays?

And Paul quoted Greek poets and his writings are considered scripture but the works by those poets are not. Need I point out what you are doing or failing to do? Come out of the dark interior of that tent.

[kosta50]

Because languages are different, as in Greek in which one can say "to the women who departed" using a single word.

If you are going to comment, then provide examples. Explain how can 'elohyim mean two different things. Likewise provide the example of word used to mean "the women who departed" and show that it is the same as the word for "women" (gunaikwn) as you seem to imply.

Or what Jesus referred to as "heaven" was something else and doesn't have anything to do with Enoch's "translation".

Oh, please spare me these childish rationalization! Well, you will need to elaborate on this too. Otherwise it's meaningless.

2 Kings 2:11 states "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." This contradicts John 3:13 "No man hath ascended up to heaven."

No problems. Telescoping of generations is common as is referring to an ancestor more than once removed as a father.

Are you joking? The two genealogies don't even match. They don't even agree who Joseph's father was; one goes back to Adam, calling him the Son of God.

I noticed that you decided to ignore my comment regarding the discrepancy in the 6ht/7th generation that Enoch belonged to as stated in Jude/Genesis. I guess that is "telescoping" too. This is some real "fuzzy math" I must admit. I really don't think the Holy Spirit would be making such discrepancies.

And yet Paul says that not everyone will die but that we will all be changed

All of us? Really? What news is that? Christians believe that souls cannot die (even though the OT says "the soul that sinneth shall die," hmmmmm), but will live in eternity either in bliss or in torment.

And Hebrews doesn't say that everyone "must" die.

No it doesn't, it says that man is appointed apokeimai to die once. That means that man (every man) is designated to die once. It must mean physically, because being baptized is being reborn spiritually.

Unless Enoch is to come back and die, the author of Hebrews contradicts himself in the same book. And as far as I know the Bible says nothing about Enoch coming back.

I guess by what you're saying Lazarus and others that Jesus raised from the dead must either have not "really" died, or must still be alive today and leading sinless immortal lives, or that the stories are just incorrect because Romans 5:12 and Hebrews say "that everyone must die."

Yup, that's exactly what I am saying. There is no plausible explanation for these contradictions. If Lazarus did really die then he would have been judged. If he was brought back to life and then died again, then Hebrews is wrong. Take your pick: Gospels or Hebrews.

And Paul quoted Greek poets and his writings are considered scripture but the works by those poets are not. Need I point out what you are doing or failing to do?

First of all, Douay version of the Bible included the Book of Enoch, just as 4th century Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest complete Cristian Bible, contains the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas, both now considered non-scriptural.

Obviosuly for hundreds of years, the Church believed they were. It just shows that what's in the Bible is decided by human beings and their beliefs and not the Holy Spirit, because it's imperfect.

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day not only has a copy of the Book of Enoch but uses is as canon.

Second, Jude (14-15) is quoting a prophesy from the Book of Enoch (1:9)

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Obviously, Jude is using the Book of Enoch as a valid scriptural source of a prophesy. Only a fool can deny this. Otherwise, we can start quoting form the Koran or the Panishads!

Third, your comparison to Paul quoting from Greek poets is comparing apples and oranges. Paul is not quoting prophesies or anything really not universally believed.

He quotes Aratus (Acts 17:28): "For in him we live and move and have our being"; he also quotes Menander (1 Corinthians 15:33), hardly a prophesy: "Do not be misled: 'Bad company corrupts good character.'" He also quotes from Epimenides (Titus 1:12): "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons."

Night and day when compared to how Jude quotes the Book of Enoch.

You really need to provide some substance instead of sweeping generalizations.