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To: annalex; Forest Keeper; stfassisi; kosta50
Original sin in itself does not condemn to hell.

I would suggest we look closely at the following text:

Please note Paul states that all sinned through Adam. We are not simply tainted with the desire to do evil. According to Rom 5:12 we have actually sinned, which is the way God views the matter. God charged Adam's sin to all humanity. All men are guilty of the sin of Adam and therefore all men die.

Sin is what condemns us to hell. Original sin does mean that all are condemned to hell. Death is the evidence of us being sinners, not simply that we are tainted with a desire to sin. Otherwise premature babies would never die since, theoretically, they haven't sinned.

5,223 posted on 04/29/2008 5:01:54 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:

Please note Paul states that all sinned through Adam....All men are guilty of the sin of Adam and therefore all men die.


Then look closely at the passage. Paul said that sin entered the world through one man. He did not say that "all sinned through Adam". He said that death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned."

God is not holding anyone guilty for the sin of another, not even the sin of Adam, otherwise the following quote from God himself in Ezekiel 18 would become untrue:
9 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

5,225 posted on 04/29/2008 5:25:12 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper; stfassisi; kosta50; aruanan
Sin is what condemns us to hell. Original sin does mean that all are condemned to hell.

As Aruanan explained, what we have in Romans 5 is what we also have in Genesis 3:

16 To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee. 17 And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. 18 Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return. 20 And Adam called the name of his wife Eve: because she was the mother of all the living. 21 And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them. 22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. 23 And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken. 24 And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

The consequence of original sin is toil, pain, death, and exile. The consequence of actual sin is condemnation to hell.

5,228 posted on 04/29/2008 8:05:10 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: HarleyD; annalex; Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; stfassisi
annalex: Original sin in itself does not condemn to hell.
HarelyD: I would suggest we look closely at the following text:

Rom 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned: Please note Paul states that all sinned through Adam.

Please note that this is a matter of dispute. First, +Paul did not use commas or punctuation marks, so, depending where you place a comma or a period or a semi-colong or colon, changes the meaning of the whole sentence. This is actually quite common in the Bible, and ultimately leaves the reader to decide what the Holy Spirit meant.

The statement "ef w panteV hmarton " is not perfectly clear:

According to Rom 5:12 we have actually sinned, which is the way God views the matter

Wow, that's pretty bombastic! The Greeks who read the original in their language disagreed then and do so to this day. This is a perfect example how translations can affect theology and lead to completely divergent conclusions that go to the very heart of our disposition towards faith.

I believe that until this moment no one ever called your attention to the fact that Romans 5:12 do not with any certainty say we have sinned through Adam and bear his guilt for it.

One thing is certain: the words in Rom 5:12 are sloppily wirtten and ambiguous enough to cause different opinions (one more reason to believe that the Holy Spirit may did nto write them!).

All men are guilty of the sin of Adam and therefore all men die.

Are you sure? HD, man was created neither mortal nor immortal, but potentially either one. Through the sin of Adam (and Eve), human nature became mortal and mortal parents have mortal children. Our mortality is a consequence of their sin, not the sin itself. Our mortality is not the penalty, because we bear no guilt for their doing.

A drug-addicted mother gives birth to drug-addicted infants. The infants have the craving for the drug but no guilt for their addition. They are born "wounded" and their will craves the sin of their mother but it is none of their doing, guilt or responsibility. Those who have no guilt are innocent and penalizing the innocent is not in God's realm because it is a vice.

Original sin does mean that all are condemned to hell. Death is the evidence of us being sinners, not simply that we are tainted with a desire to sin. Otherwise premature babies would never die since, theoretically, they haven't sinned.

This is an fine example of how grotesque misinterpretation of the original text can become! It is not the work of the Holy Spirit, for sure. It has human error written all over it.

Premature babies die because their nature is mortal. All Adam's descendants are mortal because human nature became mortal as a consequence of Adam's sin.

5,230 posted on 04/29/2008 8:58:54 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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