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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; stfassisi
Most Roman Catholics, and virtually all Bible-believing Protestants believe in the concept of original sin

The Orthodox believe in the original sin. The East never taught the Augustinian teaching of total depravity and innate "guilt" as a consequence of that sin or, for that matter, that unbaptized babies go to hell. [unfortunately, Blessed Augustine never completely shook his Menachean beliefs]

If you believe that all men are born "basically good", then I will just have to wish you the best of luck with that

Man is born innocent, not good. There is a difference. The consequence of the original sin is like drug addiction passed on from the mother to a child. The child will crave the drug but that craving is none of his doing. He bears no guilt or responsibility for that sin.

And, just as a drug-addicted infant is not dead and can be cured by a physician, so can we be cured of our fallen state with God's help, provided we ask for His help, and cling on to Him.

When I look at the real world I don't see that at all

Although many say "Lord, Lord" most don't follow in His footsteps. They preach His words but they don't do live by them. Faith is life. It's how we live that we show our faith. Unfortunately, in the Protestant world, it's okay to live a carnal life and cling on to faith, as Luther reminded us with his example.

Your side relies on man's inner goodness, and we rely on God

Your sides relies on private interpretation of God. Our side relies on God's mysteries (sacraments) of His Church. If we believed man was essentially good, the Apostolic Church would have no reason to exist. The Church exists for sinners, not saints.

It is precisely because we believe that continue to sin that we seek help and forgiveness in our struggle against repeating the same sins.

If I believed I did nothing bad, and had nothing to confess, why should I ask for forgiveness? It is your side that considers all believers as "saints." It is your side that thinks once he accepts Christs man is good!

Paul teaches total depravity clearly, which I surmise is a great reason why Apostolics don't like Paul.

I got news for you: the Church loves Paul; I don't. The Church is Pauline, not Petrine. I find that unfortunate but that's how it is. The Orthodox liturgical readings consist of Pauline Epistles and the Gospels. That pretty much says it all. Yet we do not teach Paul, but Christ. We do not stand (if there are pews) when Paul's letters are read. We stand only when the Gospels are read.

We interpret Paul in the light of the Gospels, not the other way around. When Paul says "God [sic] raised Christ", the Church says "Christ rose." If Paul says Christ is an "image of God" the Church says "Christ is God." With Protestants, Paul and Christ are one and the same thing. We don't worship Paul. Your side does.

5,084 posted on 04/23/2008 5:36:05 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; stfassisi
Man is born innocent, not good. There is a difference. The consequence of the original sin is like drug addiction passed on from the mother to a child. The child will crave the drug but that craving is none of his doing. He bears no guilt or responsibility for that sin.

Well, then does man come to God on his own based on his innocence, even after he has sinned? Or, does man become good on his own (or is that what the Church does?), and then comes to God on his own, even after he has sinned?

If we believed man was essentially good, the Apostolic Church would have no reason to exist. The Church exists for sinners, not saints.

We don't even have to go to "essentially good", just "good enough" to come to God on his own. I think your side believes that (after the work of Christ made it possible for you to show that goodness you were born with or acquired through merit).

It is your side that considers all believers as "saints." It is your side that thinks once he accepts Christ man is good!

HA! :) Which of our sides believes in infused righteousness and which believes in imputed righteousness? There's your answer to that! :)

With Protestants, Paul and Christ are one and the same thing. We don't worship Paul. Your side does.

LOL! No, no. We honor Paul. We don't worship him, and we especially do not venerate him. :)

5,197 posted on 04/28/2008 4:37:14 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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