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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; stfassisi
Man is born innocent, not good. There is a difference. The consequence of the original sin is like drug addiction passed on from the mother to a child. The child will crave the drug but that craving is none of his doing. He bears no guilt or responsibility for that sin.

Well, then does man come to God on his own based on his innocence, even after he has sinned? Or, does man become good on his own (or is that what the Church does?), and then comes to God on his own, even after he has sinned?

If we believed man was essentially good, the Apostolic Church would have no reason to exist. The Church exists for sinners, not saints.

We don't even have to go to "essentially good", just "good enough" to come to God on his own. I think your side believes that (after the work of Christ made it possible for you to show that goodness you were born with or acquired through merit).

It is your side that considers all believers as "saints." It is your side that thinks once he accepts Christ man is good!

HA! :) Which of our sides believes in infused righteousness and which believes in imputed righteousness? There's your answer to that! :)

With Protestants, Paul and Christ are one and the same thing. We don't worship Paul. Your side does.

LOL! No, no. We honor Paul. We don't worship him, and we especially do not venerate him. :)

5,197 posted on 04/28/2008 4:37:14 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; stfassisi
Well, then does man come to God on his own based on his innocence, even after he has sinned?

Man never comes to God through sin, but through repentance.

Or, does man become good on his own (or is that what the Church does?), and then comes to God on his own, even after he has sinned?

Man is restored to his freedom to choose through Baptism. It is not what we do, or what the Church does, but (we believe) it is what the Holy Spirit does, which is called a sacrament.

We don't even have to go to "essentially good", just "good enough" to come to God on his own. I think your side believes that (after the work of Christ made it possible for you to show that goodness you were born with or acquired through merit).

We are never good enough in absolute terms; we are forgiven. Even the best among us are sinners.

What we believe is simple: The Holy Spirit leads and we follow, willingly.

Which of our sides believes in infused righteousness and which believes in imputed righteousness? There's your answer to that!

The Orthodox teach neither to the best of my knowledge.

No, no. We honor Paul. We don't worship him, and we especially do not venerate him.

LOL! Do you even know what veneration means, FK? It is synonymous with honoring! You don't consider +Paul as a worthy model that perhaps you could emulate? You don't think he deserves a little awe at what he did for Christianity? Gees, we give more credit to stupid basketball players who couldn't hold a regular job, and not to mention Hollywood bimbos!

5,203 posted on 04/28/2008 5:46:35 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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