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To: Mad Dawg; Forest Keeper
I leave your posts for the last not because they are not important, bt because they are complex thoughts, and complex thoughts provoke compelx thoughts. And that which is complex takes time.

Just because I'm inarticulate and confused is no reason to be all reasonable and everything!

You are neither inarticulate nor confused, MD, so drop the pretense of humility. :)

Do we need to wonder what the will's "counting for something" might be?

Sometimes that might be helpful.

What do we "want" from our will, or what is outraged by the concepts of predestination and election, so Biblically attested (I would say) that we cannot simply blip them out?

You know, we all operate on the same principle, "feels-good, feels-bad," but the only difference is what feels good and what feels bad. Otherwise, we desire that which feels good.

As for Biblical predestination, yes there is such a thing, but the Orthodox (and I am pretty sure the Catholics as well) would say it is basically God's knowledge of our choices, not a choreographed script what we will do because God forces us to.

God gave us freedom precisely because no one can resist God's will. Robots can't love. He also gave us free will knowing that we can> resist the will of the devil. The "elect" are those who ask for God's help and submit to His will, willingly. We can do that by being restored through Baptism

If there is "thesis" of predestination and "antithesis" of freewill, then I am searching for the reconciling aufgehebung (is that a word?).

Predestination is the antithesis of free will only if the former is used to make decisions for us, rather than be a knowledge of the latter.

Aufgebung is a word, well sort of (see Hegel), but it is not spelled Aufgehbung, as that would imply more like "climbing" (up+going). Geben is to "give" and gehen is to "go." But you won't find Aufgebung in a dictionary. I believe Hegel used it as "synthesizing

Similarly, since my childhood I have longed for God. I do not think I 'chose' this. (The longing did not get in the way of my spending some years in lotus land, but the delights there could not make the longing go away -- and, besides, they all turned to "dirt and hair" after a while anyway.)

We all long for "love," whatever that love may be in our hearts. We also know that there is no universal definition of love (or God) and that it is whatever we behold inside that makes us feel 'loved."

It is also part of our nature, knowing time, that we wish what we love and what loves us to be forever, to never end, precisely because we love it! So, as we get older and wiser, we look for permanence and even eternity.

When we are young, the whole life is ahead of us (or so we think) and eternity doesn't play such a prominent role. We love the world and the world loves us. But no matter how you paint it, love is the "feels-good" of our motivational mechanism. We want it, we cling to it, we return to it, we long for it. But "it" is many things to many people.

When I resist my longing for donuts, sooner or later (like the next time I weigh the corpse) I feel that resisting my longing was freedom

I am not sure I follow what you mean by "resisting my longing...like nest time I weigh a corpse" but it is not entirely clear why your resisting of donuts was freedom. Freedom from what?

When I resist (with, as it seems, an alien resistance) my longing for God, I don't feel free.

Then why do you resist?

5,031 posted on 04/21/2008 9:15:41 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Mad Dawg
Predestination is the antithesis of free will only if the former is used to make decisions for us, rather than be a knowledge of the latter.

No, not at all. First of all, "predestination" simply being God's knowledge of man's sovereignty makes a complete mockery of the word. That isn't extra-biblical, it's anti-biblical. Second, why do you insist that either God FORCES us, OR man is completely independent of God in his sovereignty? There is no evidence of that, as MD's example with the child showed. For good, God leads us as a loving parent would lead a small child. I suppose for you the parent should close his eyes and turn his back in all things so as not to "interfere". :)

I think you're trying to have it both ways. On the one hand you will insist that God loves us and "guides" us toward the right things, but then on the other hand you will say that if God's guidance has any REAL, or decisive influence, then it is interference.

5,113 posted on 04/24/2008 8:11:55 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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