I am trying to show you that there is no proof that will satisfy our reason.
Yes, that is what I was trying to flesh out. There is no proof that will satisfy your personal reason, and perhaps the reason of the men of your Church. That, of course, does not apply to so called Bible-believing Christians, as Harley so ably demonstrated in his response, quoting from Romans.
Yet, we believe...believe it or not I believe in spite of everything I say. It's like trying to sand down titanium with a cotton ball! It is a humbling experience to realize that no amount of reasoning will touch the faith, and it is equally humbling to realize that this did not come from anything I read, learned or heard or done. We have no clue why we believe.
Wouldn't that mean that there is nothing behind your faith by simple definition? :) I'm sure you would (correctly) say that your faith is superior to that of the Heaven's Gate cult, but why should anyone believe you? You appear to be unable to obey God when He says through Peter: "1 Peter 3:15 : 15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, ..."
It is not born our of reason and therefore it is not rational, FK.
So you are defining that UNLESS a thing comes from man alone, it is irrational? If God is irrational, then do you think that man generates his own reason apart from God? I mean, how can God give something He Himself does not have to give?
For reason neither builds nor destroys faith. And if we can't prove why we believe we can't prove anything about it.
Well, I for one KNOW that my faith is stronger because it is in conformity with the reality of our world and existence. The Christian faith matches what we know .... IS.
FK: "Rationalization is the enemy of reason."
Well, in absence of real knowledge we tend to rationalize to, as I said, "come up with plausible explanations for something we don't understand."
The Bible says that God gives knowledge, as I quoted earlier. I suppose the Bible is either right or wrong.
Thus, when ancients saw thunder they rationalized it to be God's wrath. When they felt earth shake, they figured God was "shaking" the earth. When they saw a man who couldn't walk or had boils they rationalized he was stricken with a "plague" because he must have done something bad and God punished him. When some tribes heard a volcano rumble, guess what...you get my point.
So you would say that based on your 21st century mind, that God doesn't execute wrath through storms or earthquakes? And you further know that God does not afflict with boils and sores? Of course some overdo it by declaring above their own knowledge. For example, someone saying he KNOWS that 9/11 was God's wrath against the US. But that isn't the point. The point is believing that God DOES what the Bible says He does, OR, believing that if there is ANOTHER explanation consistent with modern science, that the scientific explanation MUST be true and the Biblical explanation MUST be false.
The problem with faith is that we can't just accept it. We must make it "reasonable" according to our standards of logic.
All false faiths ultimately "make no sense". Why should Christianity be like them?
Why must everything be logical to us?
Of course not EVERYTHING of God appears logical to us. But ENOUGH of His revelation is logical that we can know He is a rational Being. ENOUGH of His revelation proves to us that He is a personal Being.
Contrary to what you say, gravity is not logical. We have no clue why gravity exists! How can that be logical?
If you don't think gravity is logical then I can't imagine what you would say IS logical. :) We know that God created all matter with gravimetric properties. Today, we have a pretty good idea how many of those properties work. Would it be more logical if all matter just floated around in space, and if so, why? :) The point is, IF God wanted us to live on the earth (for now), then gravity makes perfect sense.
That's not true.
Wouldn't that mean that there is nothing behind your faith by simple definition?
Perhaps it is a delusion. That is one possibility of several.
You appear to be unable to obey God when He says through Peter: "1 Peter 3:15..."
You have not shown me that it is God speaking through someone pretending to be Peter. You are telling me that it is. How convincing is that? Not very, FK.
If God gives you faith, as your side also believes, then you don't know why you believe any more than you know why you were born where you were born and why your eyes may be brown or blue or gree. You can only say "because God gave it to me," which is the same as saying "I don't know."
So you are defining that UNLESS a thing comes from man alone, it is irrational?
We can onyl tink and cocneptualize and express within our human limits. That applies to scencie and theology equally. We depend on words and concepts that make up thoses words and by all acocunts they are insufficient because we don't jave eough words to try to describe God.
Our understanding is limted to several factors, one of which is the envornoment and our own intellect. Wiht our intellect, we are forced to interpret everything and all.
Well, I for one KNOW that my faith is stronger because it is in conformity with the reality of our world and existence
You may know but you can't prove it. The reality of the world is a matter of our perception, so the only thing you can say is that your faith is in conformity with your percepton of the world, or it is not.
If you don't think gravity is logical then I can't imagine what you would say IS logical
Logical is that which has a known cause and effect.
We know that God created all matter with gravimetric properties
We do? What verse is that?
Would it be more logical if all matter just floated around in space, and if so, why?
Actually all matter is floating around in space...ever faster and ever expanding...and we don't know why.
Of course, you will say "because God made it so." I suppose God made boils and dementia and demons that "cause" it. And he made deadly snakes and poisonous frogs and probably pink unicorns on Jupiter; makes just as much sense as anything esle, FK. Once every dilemma is "resolved" with "God made it so..." we are positviely in the Dark Ages.
FK: "I don't know how I can even try to give you what you really WANT if you won't tell me what it is." I am trying to show you that there is no proof that will satisfy our reason.
Yes, that is what I was trying to flesh out. There is no proof that will satisfy your personal reason, and perhaps the reason of the men of your Church. That, of course, does not apply to so called Bible-believing Christians, as Harley so ably demonstrated in his response, quoting from Romans.
Wouldn't that mean that there is nothing behind your faith by simple definition? :) I'm sure you would (correctly) say that your faith is superior to that of the Heaven's Gate cult, but why should anyone believe you? You appear to be unable to obey God when He says through Peter: "1 Peter 3:15 : 15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, ..."
So you are defining that UNLESS a thing comes from man alone, it is irrational? If God is irrational, then do you think that man generates his own reason apart from God? I mean, how can God give something He Himself does not have to give?
Well, I for one KNOW that my faith is stronger because it is in conformity with the reality of our world and existence. The Christian faith matches what we know .... IS.
FK: "Rationalization is the enemy of reason."
The Bible says that God gives knowledge, as I quoted earlier. I suppose the Bible is either right or wrong.
So you would say that based on your 21st century mind, that God doesn't execute wrath through storms or earthquakes? And you further know that God does not afflict with boils and sores? Of course some overdo it by declaring above their own knowledge. For example, someone saying he KNOWS that 9/11 was God's wrath against the US. But that isn't the point. The point is believing that God DOES what the Bible says He does, OR, believing that if there is ANOTHER explanation consistent with modern science, that the scientific explanation MUST be true and the Biblical explanation MUST be false.
All false faiths ultimately "make no sense". Why should Christianity be like them?
Of course not EVERYTHING of God appears logical to us. But ENOUGH of His revelation is logical that we can know He is a rational Being. ENOUGH of His revelation proves to us that He is a personal Being.
If you don't think gravity is logical then I can't imagine what you would say IS logical. :) We know that God created all matter with gravimetric properties. Today, we have a pretty good idea how many of those properties work. Would it be more logical if all matter just floated around in space, and if so, why? :) The point is, IF God wanted us to live on the earth (for now), then gravity makes perfect sense.
Thanks. Well put.