Replies

It is truly sad when man judges man - because he will indeed be judged exactly the same way. Judging is self-indicting. Matthew 7:1-2...Romans 2:1

Funny, but not surprising, that you chose to ignore the following verses:

you are to judge your neighbor fairly. [Lev 2:15]
judge with righteous judgment [John 7:24]
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment [1 Cor 2:15]
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you. [1 Cor 5:12-13]
do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? [1 Cor 6:2]

And even if there is cause for offense, the one who judges - who harbors the resentment - is cut-off as long as he refuses to forgive.

Who said there is no forgiveness? But forgiveness comes with repentance. There is no free lunch.

But what's "pathetic" in my view is man - any man - judging God.

Who is judging God? Me?

The error of man's judging God by his own rules of logic (e.g. either/or, the Law of the Excluded Middle) was the point of my post 4598 and the "sermon" at 4633.

The error of man's judgment is for some to presume that they are God's mouthpiece and to posit that anything that opposes their opinion or belief is judging God. As for the Law of Excluded Middle, the middle must be provable and real to show that the either/or choices are a false dilemma. The problem is proving that the third choice is real and rational. And those who peddle divine spokesmanship cannot prove anything unless one already believes in the third option as real.

You are telling me that predestination and free will can "co-exist" but you do not show how that is possible or even real. I take it that your definitions of predestination and free will are vastly different from standard definitions, in which case please define them.

To me a predestined world is a divine theater where different actors act out specific roles in order for the heavenly play to come to a predetermined, scripted end. The actors are not at all at any liberty to change the script or their assigned characters, even though they may wish it. There is no room for any free will on that stage.

Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee.

The Bible states that many things are hidden from God. Go figure.

Likewise the parable in Matthew 20 sums up the error in resenting God's will for us

Some people do blame and hate God for everything. That's unfortunate. Christians believe that God is Love and His will is desire, a desire that all mankind is saved. Love doesn't impose; love only desires.

Man is not the measure of God...For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts...Isa 55:8-9

Yeah, and the good Apostle tells us "But we have the mind of Christ" [1 Cor 2:16]...as usual.

[ Funny, but not surprising, that you chose to ignore the following verses: ]

Being forbid to partake of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.. How is it that mankind can make judgments on most anything? Rightly?..

Through scripture(Sola Scriptura) or by lame or ingenious dogma devised by other men.. is a way.. i.e. ceremony, sacraments, liturgy, testimony of "saints", tradition, even spiritual modeling(Icons)..

Then you are making personal judgments as you are demurring to established rules of conduct.. LAW works.. until it doesn't work anymore.. Then you need opposite judgments to deal with overages that mankind is prone to.. The "LAW" is indeed a TEACHER.. What it teaches is its own limitations..

The "law" is weak toward flesh.. Flesh requires law to forbid chaos.. but it is a hard taskmaster, even brutal.. The spirit is more discriminating but still weak..

The only way(to know good and/from evil) is for fully interacting personal contact with the Holy Spirit.. Even then you can misread or not be open to the Holy Spirits(paeacletes) "help" in that way.. We MUST be sanctified in our choices.. i.e. weaned.. Weaned from our desires and qualia to righteousness.. i.e. good as opposed to evil..

ONLY God knows or can know the ultimate good from the evil of a thing.. Thats WHY Jesus left the Holy Spirit to guide us as much as we are willing to be guided.. Are "YOU"(and me) unwilling to be guided toward "the GOOD" sometimes?.. I know from experience I am.. and probably you are too..

Thats WHY we are not to touch the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil".. STILL.. If "you"(somebody) does not know the Holy Spirit he is in a world of hurt.. How can you know Him?.. Throw yourself at his "feet"(right where you are) and repent of all known arrogance.. and plead "MERCY"...

Your reply is evidence of the very point I have been endeavoring to drive home:

Man is not the measure of God.

We must receive all of the words of God – even if they are hard to accept and that includes not dismissing God’s words based on our own mortal reasoning or desire.

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: - Luke 24:25

In John 6, many of Christ’s disciples left Him because His words were a “hard saying” they could not accept. Theirs is not an example any Christian should follow.

As for the Law of Excluded Middle, the middle must be provable and real to show that the either/or choices are a false dilemma. The problem is proving that the third choice is real and rational….
You are telling me that predestination and free will can "co-exist" but you do not show how that is possible or even real. I take it that your definitions of predestination and free will are vastly different from standard definitions, in which case please define them.

Above, you demand that God must be “rational” – but the word “rational” comes from “ratio” which measures the relationship between two numbers. Man is variable but God is invariable.

Like the word “ratio” does not apply to a single number, the term “rational” does not apply to God; there is no ratio in Truth – there can only be a ratio to Truth. God is absolute. His ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts.

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9

Likewise, we denizens of space/time with vision and minds constrained to four perceptible dimensions (not to mention highly limited mental capability) are in no position whatsoever to tell God that we know what is "real." Jeepers, we don't even know - and can never know - the scope of "all that there is."

Your challenge:

Your statement roughly equates man’s scientific theory of “strong determinism” to “predestination.” Roughly, strong determinism says that if you knew the initial conditions of the universe - and the rules - then you would be able to determine every future event.

But God’s says:

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. – Luke 19:40

God’s will is irresistible. Therein is predestination.

The new heaven and earth (Revelation) is not a possibility. It will be because it is God’s will, He has spoken it.

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:10

Likewise, God’s calling is without repentance.

For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. – Romans 11:29

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. – Romans 8:28-30

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, - Ephesians 1:3-5

And He also gives man free will - or freedom of movement – but it is not absolute because the will of God is irresistible.

In the passage we’ve been discussing, John 21, Peter’s ‘freedom of movement’ is love. He wasn’t being forced to love Jesus to a certain level (more than these) - but Jesus made it very clear by repeating it three times that loving Him is the necessary qualification to feed His lambs. Peter evidently had a problem keeping his priorities straight:

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. – Matthew 16:23

Likewise, when Moses was called to his mission, he balked because his speech was inadequate. God was angry with him for balking – for not trusting Him – but He “worked around” Moses’ will by giving him Aaron.

And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I [am] not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I [am] slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.

And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD? Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand [of him whom] thou wilt send.

And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, [Is] not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart. And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, [even] he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God. – Exodus 4:10-16

God’s will was irresistible, but Moses did have some “freedom of movement.”

No one and no thing can thwart the will of God. That is the bottom line.

Not Satan, not Moses, not Peter, not Herod, not Paul, not the people when Jesus entered Jerusalem, not you, not me, no one - and that includes Mary.

Now I realize that many of my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ put great stock in Mary’s submission to God’s calling. I strongly suspect her submission is why they are so compelled to venerate her as an example of how everyone ought to submit to the will of God.

But in no way could she have thwarted the will of God. If she had balked like Moses – or if she had refused – then Jesus would nevertheless had become enfleshed. With God, all things are possible.

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. - Matthew 3:9

But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. - Matthew 19:26

If anyone thinks Mary could thwart the will of God then they must also think that Satan can thwart the will of God.

But we know that his fate has already been sealed. Revelation 20

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. - Luke 10:18

To God be the glory!

BTW, your comments on judgment call for another “sermonette” but I didn’t want to overload this post – so more later.

Onto the discussion of judgment …

Funny, but not surprising, that you chose to ignore the following verses:

I do not ignore the words of God - any of them.

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: - Luke 24:25

Leviticus 2 deals with offerings – perhaps you meant chapter 19?

If so, then it should be noted that both Leviticus 19:15 and John 7:24 tell us righteous judgment is not based on appearances:

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: [but] in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. – Leviticus 19:15

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. – John 7:24

The I Corinthians 2 verse you cited - in context - is speaking of Spiritual discernment, the Spiritual is judged of no man:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. – I Corinthians 2:14-16

I Corinthians 6:1-8 speaks of judging matters between people.

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded?

Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren.

Judging matters is not the same as judging the people themselves.

Matthew 7:1-5 speaks of judging people:

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. - Matthew 7:1-5

Finally from your list is I Corinthians 5 which speaks to judging within our assemblies on earth:

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. – I Corinthians 5:12-13

And with that I again return to the Sermon on the Mount.

In Matthew 7, Jesus Christ raises two aspects of man’s judging. The first, verses 1-2, warns us that if we judge another, we will be judged exactly the same way. And that is righteous judgment consistent with the Lord’s prayer in Matthew 6:15 whereby we ask God to forgive us our debts exactly the same way we forgive others.

The second is judging false prophets which Christ encourages us to do. Note in Matthew 7:15-20 we are to know they are false by their fruits – a good tree does not produce bad fruits.

This is also righteous judgment, of the same vein as I Corinthians 5 which tells us to examine the fruits within our own assembly and remove everyone whose fruits are specifically: fornication, covetousness, extortion, idolatry, drunkedness, railing.

The bottom line is to stay away from prophets (people who want to teach us) whose fruits are bad. The fruits of the Spirit - the good fruits are:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

The Scriptures are clear. Man will be judged exactly the same way he judges others.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37

That was the point I raised and none of the verses you cite contradict Matthew 7:1-5 – nor could they, i.e a thing is true because God says it. That point ties this reply to the earlier one at post 4789.

Romans 2:1 further shows that if a man judges another condemns himself:

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. - Romans 2:1

Our thoughts indict us. Returning again to the Sermon on the Mount, Christ says that thinking a thing is tantamount to doing it:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. – Matthew 5:27-28

And that of course brings us back to the point of Proverbs 23:

As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he... - Proverbs 23:7

Which is further explained in Mark 7 – a man is defiled not by what goes into his mouth but what comes out of his heart.

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. - Mark 7:20-23

Righteous judgment is not based on appearances. Righteous judgment is directed to matters, things or fruits.

If we judge another person, we will be judged exactly the same way.

In sum, hate the sin and love the sinner.

To God be the glory!