*** For example, GOD SAYS that no one can be snatched out of His hands. Catholics say “OH YES SOMEONE CAN, WE CATHOLICS CAN”.***
Don’t be silly. We say that men have free will to determine for themselves if they will accept God’s Grace. We do not understand the concept of the frogmarching Holy Spirit.
***That is not grace. That is standing by and smiling while you watch your small child wander into the middle of a busy street to play in traffic. In contrast, I say that God actually loves His children. :)***
God gave us His Church in order to keep His children from playing in the theological street. The Reformed keep forgetting to mention that the Reformed God created the unelect for hellfire and damnation forever and that only the minority (of the elect) are kept from playing in the street forcibly and without their permission and (it seems) their knowledge.
***God says that He wants all of His children to be saved. And, they ARE! :) God also makes an outward call to all men, but He does not ORDAIN that all men will be saved. Disagreeing Catholics are left to explain God’s failure since all men are not saved. Reformers don’t have that problem. :)***
Reformers have apparently truncated their Paul once again: 1 Tim 2:
1
1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
2
for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4
who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
***Think about what you are saying. What could possibly be an allure to something one has no say in?***
Umm, you’re kidding me right? A personal get out of hell free card is not an attractive proposition? A disavowing of any responsibility and a guaranteed limo ride to Heaven is not of great allure?
***So logically, there should be no allure to Calvinism in this particular Catholic premise. It does one no good. YET He has chosen us to follow Him anyway.***
I’ve noticed that all those who are Reformed believe that they are of the elite selected elect. I do not know of any Reformed that believe that they are of the non elect. The beauty of it is that every sin that one commits is of no consequence and repentence is not required after one initially repents.
A perfect teenage wet dream. You can do anything you want and still get the limo ride. Scripturally unsound, and yet so appealing. You see why we value the lessons of the Church Fathers and the bishops that fell into heresy? It shows that individuals can be so theologically wrong. It is the Church that is right.
While the nonelect will end up in hell, they were not created for the purpose of sending them there, as many on your side continue to allege. They were created to be used for God's purposes in order to glorify Him.
I'm not sure what you mean by permission. God has my complete permission, as if He needed it, to do whatever with me He chooses. In terms of His originally giving me faith, at that time I didn't want it since I was under original sin. My inner goodness, apart from God, was not nearly good enough to come to God on my own. If God did not do what He did then I would be lost. I know that many think of that as a total violation of the sanctity of man's free will. All I know is that if He didn't "violate" it, I would never be saved. Maybe that's how it is decided who will be Protestant and who will be Apostolic, the ones with no inner goodness whatsoever become Protestant. :)
Reformers have apparently truncated their Paul once again: 1 Tim 2: 1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
Well, either God is a colossal failure in what He wills, an extraordinarily weak God, OR, this passage does not mean what you are saying it means. Here, "wills" refers to a general desire or wish in an outward sense, or to the general nature of God, one of love. It is consistent that an all loving God would "want" all men to be saved, but that cannot be taken as literally true.
FK: ***Think about what you are saying. What could possibly be an allure to something one has no say in?***
Umm, you’re kidding me right? A personal get out of hell free card is not an attractive proposition? A disavowing of any responsibility and a guaranteed limo ride to Heaven is not of great allure?
Wow, your above certainly DOES sound alluring. Unfortunately, us Reformers don't have access to any of that. In any event, my point was that the sense of "allure" is meaningless to a Reformer since we know that God chooses His own. IOW, we don't "sign up" for a good deal from ourselves. We choose God BECAUSE He chose us first.
I do not know of any Reformed that believe that they are of the non elect. The beauty of it is that every sin that one commits is of no consequence and repentance is not required after one initially repents.
I do not know of any Catholics who believe they are going to hell. What does that solve? :)
All sins have consequences, Mark. God disciplines those He loves, and we know what happens to those He doesn't love. It's just that not every action we take on earth has salvific consequences. I couldn't imagine spending my whole life going from saved to damned to saved to damned over and over again. I wouldn't leave the house. :)