What Biblical scholarship do you bring that gainsays the Catholic translation, and the translation of the Church Fathers right back to the Apostles?
It is not a matter of scholarship, it is a matter of common sense and observation of what YOU guys have said on these boards. I assert that when you all read a passage in which God says "THIS IS SO", in MANY cases you all parenthetically add the codicil "ONLY IF A MAN IN HIS FREE WILL AGREES SO". For example, GOD SAYS that no one can be snatched out of His hands. Catholics say "OH YES SOMEONE CAN, WE CATHOLICS CAN".
Either sin is of man or it is of God. If man is responsible for his sins, then he has to have some control over them. The Grace of God allows man, with his own free will, to determine whether he goes to hell or not.
That is not grace. That is standing by and smiling while you watch your small child wander into the middle of a busy street to play in traffic. In contrast, I say that God actually loves His children. :)
God wants all to be saved; I understand that that passage has been excised from the Calvinist Bible, nevertheless, it does say that.
God says that He wants all of His children to be saved. And, they ARE! :) God also makes an outward call to all men, but He does not ORDAIN that all men will be saved. Disagreeing Catholics are left to explain God's failure since all men are not saved. Reformers don't have that problem. :)
FK: Sure, sin results in eternal death. That’s what the Bible says. Fortunately, God provides a way for His elect to escape that fate. We disagree on whether God could handle it Himself or whether He needed help.***
Oooooh, stepping lightly around that landmine to Calvinist theology, aren’t we? The frogmarching Holy Spirit absolves every Calvinist elect of any responsibility for anything that he does.
In your mocking of Calvinists you have often used the term "frogmarching". In today's parlance, that term carries with it the word picture of a criminal being led away in shame to justice. You appear to want readers to think that Calvinists think God drags people kicking and screaming into His family. We think no such thing. What you call "frogmarching" is what we call "God's sovereignty". Do you believe that God EVER EVER gets what He wants? Your side shows me offense at the thought that He ever does.
[continuing:] Kind of a theological teenage wet dream, isn’t it?
I will let the readers decide that.
[continuing:] No matter what I do - drinking underage, stealing cars and crashing them, smoking pot, skipping school, vandalizing and burgling - there’s always Big Daddy to pull our wretched backsides out of the fire.
That is NOT what the Bible teaches, and it is NOT what we believe. It is also NOT what we preach. ONLY IN YOUR MINDS does this mindset exist, against us. I must admit a level of great frustration building because of how many times I have quoted Paul saying "BY NO MEANS". On that I have been ignored.
That’s the allure of Calvinism - the ducking of personal responsibility.
Think about what you are saying. What could possibly be an allure to something one has no say in? Calvinism says that God chooses who will be saved. I can work very hard and earn a ton of points, but if God hasn't chosen me, then I'm not going to be saved. So logically, there should be no allure to Calvinism in this particular Catholic premise. It does one no good. YET He has chosen us to follow Him anyway.
If man has no free will then man doesn't act on his own but on God's will—regardless if he is doing good or evil.
*** For example, GOD SAYS that no one can be snatched out of His hands. Catholics say “OH YES SOMEONE CAN, WE CATHOLICS CAN”.***
Don’t be silly. We say that men have free will to determine for themselves if they will accept God’s Grace. We do not understand the concept of the frogmarching Holy Spirit.
***That is not grace. That is standing by and smiling while you watch your small child wander into the middle of a busy street to play in traffic. In contrast, I say that God actually loves His children. :)***
God gave us His Church in order to keep His children from playing in the theological street. The Reformed keep forgetting to mention that the Reformed God created the unelect for hellfire and damnation forever and that only the minority (of the elect) are kept from playing in the street forcibly and without their permission and (it seems) their knowledge.
***God says that He wants all of His children to be saved. And, they ARE! :) God also makes an outward call to all men, but He does not ORDAIN that all men will be saved. Disagreeing Catholics are left to explain God’s failure since all men are not saved. Reformers don’t have that problem. :)***
Reformers have apparently truncated their Paul once again: 1 Tim 2:
1
1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
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for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
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This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
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who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
***Think about what you are saying. What could possibly be an allure to something one has no say in?***
Umm, you’re kidding me right? A personal get out of hell free card is not an attractive proposition? A disavowing of any responsibility and a guaranteed limo ride to Heaven is not of great allure?
***So logically, there should be no allure to Calvinism in this particular Catholic premise. It does one no good. YET He has chosen us to follow Him anyway.***
I’ve noticed that all those who are Reformed believe that they are of the elite selected elect. I do not know of any Reformed that believe that they are of the non elect. The beauty of it is that every sin that one commits is of no consequence and repentence is not required after one initially repents.
A perfect teenage wet dream. You can do anything you want and still get the limo ride. Scripturally unsound, and yet so appealing. You see why we value the lessons of the Church Fathers and the bishops that fell into heresy? It shows that individuals can be so theologically wrong. It is the Church that is right.