Is that a fact? Let's be serious, okay. By your logic, no one can be sanctified unless thoroughly tested.
I didn't give you any logic. I have never said or implied any such thing as you have suggested. Testing helps with sanctification, it doesn't define it.
FK: "He doesn't just sit back and "wait" (within time, plus nudging, plus chance) for the outcome of men's decisions, as the Apostolic position holds."
Is that a fact too? Please show me, and when you do I will show you that I can walk through the walls and levitate...on pink unicorns from Jupiter.
Your pattern is to define all reality into mystery, and then claim that your personal fantasy is plausible BECAUSE it is also mystery. I reject that approach.
FK: "Once a low level true faith is established by God (salvation), then sanctification begins and we move toward a higher level. This movement not only benefits us personally in our personal relationship with God, but it also makes us more useful to God to accomplish His plan for us as individuals. A fully saved person can and will always grow in Christ."
Really, you don't say? And where is this all spelled out, or are you just making it up as you go along?
I re-read my own comment three times, and then I read your response three times. I'm still shaking my head. :) I cannot FATHOM what you would find offensive in what I said. Even if you don't agree to the micro-point, I KNOW I didn't say anything an Orthodox should recoil at the way you did.
FK, you said that testing helps [sic] to sanctify us during our lives. You are making a relationship between testing and sanctification, a is a function of b. But you neither prove the existence, nor do you define the nature of this relationship. If there is no testing, does that mean there is no sanctification? If there is abundance of testing, does that mean there is abundance of sanctification?
Does that mean that the "unlucky" ones who are never tested, the happy-go-lucky folks, never get sanctified? You simply shoot from the hip, making extraordinary claims without providing extraordinary evidence/proof that your claims are valid.
You may very well believe what you say, but it is only your belief, not a fact. Facts require proof. If you said "I believe testing helps sanctify us during our lives" I would have simply accepted that as your personal belief.
But, FK, you are telling me what God is like because you a priori accept as truth what is written about Him. I am simply using your own style and it seems to irritate you. Welcome to the club!
You are defining reality according to your beliefs, as a matter of fact. Those who don't share your beliefs are simply classified as spiritually "blind" and "deaf." Yet, you don't have a shred of evidence to prove anything because the "proof" requires that one already believe in order to have the "eyes" and "ears."
If faith is given, then no amount of text-proofing and cherry-picking the Bible will "prove" anything. But the Protestants say God gives faith, yet they use the Bible to "prove" that which they cannot give, namely faith! How silly is that?
What's the use of showing pictures to a blind man? What's the point of playing music to a deaf man? What's the use of showing Bible verses to a nonbeliever? What effort is it to "prove" the Bible to someone who already believes? It's all Protestant/Baptist feel-good, man-made stuff, FK. It's all fluff. It's a same-minded club where everyone goes around quoting the Bible and everyone saying "Amen, Amen!" and patting each other on the back.
To you, the Eucharist is a symbol or a ritual. To the Orthodox and Catholic it is a mystery (sacrament) of God's real presence. It's a matter of belief. It's not something one can objectively prove. And we state it as such every Sunday
It's our belief.
I am too, FK. This is what you wrote:
This is pure conjecture. First, what is the low level "true" faith? Then, how do you know that sanctification begins? Because you are tested? Or is this sanctification now a fucntion of some other factors you didn't come up with earlier?
Second, how does it benefit us if finding "true" faith is salvific? Is there a greater benefit than what Christ accomplished on the Cross? Sure seems that way from the way you write.
Third, our sanctification make us more "useful" [sic] to God so He can finish His "plan?" Are we "helping" God along?
This brings up some problems, FK. What about Judas. Was he also "helping" God accomplish His "plan?" Was he also "sanctified?" Does this mean that somehow, in a twisted heretic way, Judas was really a "friend" of Jesus? "Helping" Him accomplish His task? After all, without Judas' betrayal, Jesus could not die for our sins!
Or did Judas have no power to do but what God destined him to do, in which case he did nothing wrong?!? He was just one of those useful but disposable human beings the Reformed God created for His own glory?