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To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; wmfights; Alamo-Girl
I am not opposed to Mark 16:17-18. I am simply asking where are those signs the verse speak of as a promise to the believers?!

Not everyone is given those types of things. If you were to look through scripture, you’ll find that given the 2,000 years of the Old Testament, there really weren’t very many miracles. God wants His people to walk by faith-not sight. As Paul and Barnabas found out when they healed the man in Athens, much to their regret, miracles can have unfortunate consequences. People thought they were gods and when they tried to explain who it was who really created the miracle they were stoned.

Miracles are used for various purposes for enacting God's will. But as has been repeatedly shown in scripture, miracles don't change the heart. God has to do that. Pharaoh saw all sorts of miracles. God appeared to Abimelech in a dream. The Philistines recongized the miracles of God when they stoled the ark. The unbelieving Israelites ate the food of angels for 40 years. None of these miracles did them any good. God could pop His hand out of the thin air and start writing on the wall and all people will do is look at it and say, “Whew!! There's something you don't see everyday, Myrtle.” People will not see a miracle even if the handwriting is on the wall.

Signs do happen and they happen through believers; they just don’t happen to everyone nor are they as frequent as we think they should be. But, today we have people like Benny Hinn or the Church who think miracles should pop up every two or three days and then jump up and down saying, “See, see”. They simply have a misunderstanding of the purpose of miracles.

We don't dictate to God that we want a miracle. In my thinking that is blasphemous. God dispenses His gifts as He sees fit and is necessary. He went for four hundred years and never performed a single miracle that we know of. What makes us think He should do something every few months?

2,013 posted on 02/13/2008 3:44:47 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
“” He went for four hundred years and never performed a single miracle that we know of. What makes us think He should do something every few months?””

Dear Harley,
The typical mistake too many people seem to make regarding miracles is putting too much emphasis on physical miracles

The Late Father John Hardon explains this better than I can...

“”In general a miracle is any effect perceptible by the senses, produced by God which surpasses the powers of nature. Immediately we must explain that there are three levels of natural laws that God can surpass and thus perform a miracle. There are the physical laws of visible nature. Thus the sudden healing of a fatal disease surpasses needless to say the powers of human physical nature. Indeed surpasses the powers of all physical nature. Walking on water is naturally impossible. The raising of a dead human being back to life exceeds all created power, and no one but God with His omnipotence can raise a dead person back to life. And just for the record, physical miracles are the lowest level of miraculous phenomena.

On a higher level than physical miracles is the performance of what the Church calls moral miracles. A moral miracle exceeds the powers of the human will in the practice of superhuman moral virtue. For which the Church has coined the term “heroic moral virtue”. This in fact is one of the norms used by the Church in her assessment of authentic sanctity. The lives of saints like Francis of Assisi and Thomas More. The deaths of martyrs like St. Agnes and Maria Goretti. These are witnesses to the miraculous power that Christ has given to His most beloved followers over the centuries. In other words, every canonized saint is a moral miracle. And today’s world needs (what a safe statement) men and women and even children who are practicing what the Church calls heroic virtue.

Finally, still on the different levels of miraculous phenomena there are intellectual miracles in which God enlightens the human mind beyond all natural capacity for acquiring knowledge. The most obvious witnesses to this highest level in the time of Christ were (Shall I say it?) the dense thick-headed Apostles. God had to enlighten them, and this is part of our faith - miraculously. However, over the centuries Christ has continued performing these miracles of the intellect. In a St. Augustine of Hippo, and in a St. Therese of Avila, or in a Catherine of Siena. These testify to the power of Christ, the Incarnate Truth, can produce among human beings who believe that He is indeed the Living God in human form.””

Its certainly been awhile since I posted you, I hope all is well with you and your family!

2,017 posted on 02/13/2008 4:14:35 PM PST by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; wmfights; MarkBsnr; ...
Not everyone is given those types of things

Forest Keeper and I had this discussion a while back. The verse simply says believers. Just like the verse before: those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. It doesn't mean "some" of those who believe and are baptized, HD. It means all who believe and are baptized shall be saved (I emphasize also shall be; it doesn't say are).

It's just like the verse where Jesus says He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel that Protestants suddenly lose their "eyes" and cannot see the word only. Similarly, they cannot see that Christ is speaking to the disciples only at the Sermon on the Mount.

Funny "visions" and "hearings" Protestants have. Selective, just like their verses.

2,027 posted on 02/13/2008 7:36:57 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; wmfights
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

The unbelieving Israelites ate the food of angels for 40 years. None of these miracles did them any good. God could pop His hand out of the thin air and start writing on the wall and all people will do is look at it and say, “Whew!! There's something you don't see everyday, Myrtle.” People will not see a miracle even if the handwriting is on the wall.

Indeed. They never received the "ears to hear."

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deut 29:2-5

"Ears to hear" are a gift of God - a miracle.

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

Those who cannot hear cannot understand the miracle.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Cor 2:14

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? - Isaiah 53:1

To God be the glory!

2,034 posted on 02/13/2008 10:06:33 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: HarleyD
If you were to look through scripture, you'll find that given the 2,000 years of the Old Testament, there really weren't very many miracles. God wants His people to walk by faith-not sight.

AMEN, Harley!

Miracles are used for various purposes for enacting God's will. But as has been repeatedly shown in scripture, miracles don't change the heart. God has to do that. Pharaoh saw all sorts of miracles. God appeared to Abimelech in a dream. The Philistines recognized the miracles of God when they stoled the ark. The unbelieving Israelites ate the food of angels for 40 years. None of these miracles did them any good. God could pop His hand out of the thin air and start writing on the wall and all people will do is look at it and say, "Whew!! There's something you don't see everyday, Myrtle." People will not see a miracle even if the handwriting is on the wall.

LOLOL! Myrtle's always been something of a skeptic. 8~)

2,073 posted on 02/14/2008 4:44:58 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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