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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; irishtenor; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; HarleyD; wmfights
reconcile Mark 16:17-18 with being a believer?

What's your problem with these verses? Christ is simply saying the first apostles would have extraordinary gifts in order to more forcefully preach the Gospel in those very early days of Christianity.

The verse you should be looking at, Kosta, is the verse right before these...

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; and he that believeth not shall me damned." -- Mark 16:16

So since these words are clear and concise from Christ Himself, we ask ourselves "believe what?"

And that answer is easy if we read Christ's other words and the words of Scripture --

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins...

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God...

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." -- John 8:24;28-32;42-47;58

"I and my Father are one." -- John 10:30

If we believe in Jesus Christ alone as Lord and Savior, God incarnate; if we believe He is of God and from God and is God; if we believe He died to pay for our sins and was resurrected into heaven to prove it all true; then we can be assured by Christ's own word that we are not damned, but instead are numbered among His sheep who will be glorified with Him in heaven.

You ask for evidence of these facts, and this is where the reformed perspective answers most clearly. This belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is evidence of our salvation; not a requirement for it. The only requirement for our salvation is Christ on the cross "by whose stripes we are healed."

If we give evidence of believing our own good works will redeem us; believing in "another Christ;" believing in a "co-redeemer" or a "dispensatrix of all grace;" then we show ourselves to be believing lies.

And as Christ told us, the evidence of those lies reveals our condemnation.

1,953 posted on 02/12/2008 12:13:52 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you oh so very much for sharing your insights, and especially thank you for those beautiful Scriptures!
1,956 posted on 02/12/2008 12:36:03 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; stfassisi; MarkBsnr; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; ...
Christ is simply saying the first apostles would have extraordinary gifts in order to more forcefully preach the Gospel in those very early days of Christianity

Oh, so now he is talking only to the first apostles and when it comes to other preachings where he specifically addresses only the apsotles, then it is all believers? How convenient! He says specifically believers, and that means all believers.

The verse you should be looking at, Kosta, is the verse right before these..."He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved

That's right, shall be saved and not is saved.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins...

Of course, because those who don't believe in Him will not follow in His steps and imitate Him, but will give in to their self-rigtheousness and pride.

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Think for a moment how "trinitarian" that is. This is the same God who was with God and was God forever. He had to be "taught?"

If we believe in Jesus Christ alone as Lord and Savior, God incarnate; if we believe He is of God and from God and is God; if we believe He died to pay for our sins and was resurrected into heaven to prove it all true; then we can be assured by Christ's own word that we are not damned, but instead are numbered among His sheep who will be glorified with Him in heaven

That's right, but we have to believe first. It's that leap of faith. You must accept something as holy. But that is not a proof of anything! The Muslims would use the same argument about the Koran. exactly the same.

And the Muslims will tell you the same thing about their faith. It proves nothing to say you have faith. It is your belief. It's not a proof of its credibility or correctness. IF you believe then the scripture "makes sense." But to us the Koran is nothing and to the Muslims, the NT is nothing. To us Christ IS God, and to the Muslims and Jews he is just a man. They believe it as much as you and I believe He is God.

Scriputre cannot prove itself. It requires an a priori leap of faith; blind acceptance of its holiness.

1,966 posted on 02/12/2008 5:28:10 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50

***If we believe in Jesus Christ alone as Lord and Savior, God incarnate; if we believe He is of God and from God and is God; if we believe He died to pay for our sins and was resurrected into heaven to prove it all true; then we can be assured by Christ’s own word that we are not damned, but instead are numbered among His sheep who will be glorified with Him in heaven.

You ask for evidence of these facts, and this is where the reformed perspective answers most clearly. This belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is evidence of our salvation; not a requirement for it. The only requirement for our salvation is Christ on the cross “by whose stripes we are healed.”***

It looks as if cause and effect are reversed within the space of two paragraphs.

Paragraph 1: The belief in God causes salvation.

Paragraph 2: The belief in God is as a result of salvation.

By their fruits (and their words) shall ye know them. I appear to be looking at contradictory and contrarily opposite fruit. I understand that this confusion and error is at the center of Reformed theology; and I thank you for your contribution towards identifying it.


2,228 posted on 02/18/2008 12:53:14 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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