Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Garden variety misinterpretation. Nothing new. But the characterization of me as "taking offense", is interesting.
The important thing to note, I'd say, is that the misinterpretation is at bottom a device to compel attention:
The normal response to being misinterpreted is to assume the error is benign and to try to clarify things. The S-E sufferer exploits this response in the manner you see here.
I'd depict the "schema" of the ploy as:
S-E states a hostile mischaracterization of the target's post.
Relying on the target's supposed desire to be correctly understood by the S-E sufferer,S-E uses the proposed misunderstanding to deliver other hostile material.
The premise is "If you want me to understand you, you'll have to read through the post which exhibits my misunderstanding, so I can use it to strike more blows."
Sooner or later the whole thing breaks down because it becomes apparent to the target that the misunderstanding is not "Real" but is an, in some sense, intended device or "game" -- or, more precisely, a "move" in a "game".
***As I understand it, in many cases, Augustine’s “final” answers were what Calvin and Luther were quoting from in support of their writings.***
As I understand it, in many more cases, the quotes are from Augustine’s heretical years.
***We just look at what Paul actually says. While interpretations are needed and made by both sides at different times, the NUMBER of times Paul’s plain meaning is taken is FAR greater in Reformed theology.***
Really?
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.
2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.
2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.
2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.
Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).
Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.
Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.
1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.
2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.
Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.
Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 - this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 - this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it’s guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the “hope” to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one “hope” (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and “hope” (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the “hope” (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the “hope” of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the “hope” (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of “hope” in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our “hope” or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of “hope” (not of certainty) of salvation.
2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good “hope” through grace.
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our “hope” (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our “hope” (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her “hope” (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they “may also obtain salvation.” This verse teaches us that even the “elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ’s house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our “hope” (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of “hope” (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the “hope” (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a “hope” that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better “hope” (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.
1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.
Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.
1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.
Eph. 1:5; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of “predestination” (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and “predetermination” (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.
Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).
2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.
1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.
1 Tim. 4:10 - our hope is on the living God who is the Savior of all men (not just the elect).
Titus 2:11 - for the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (not just the elect).
Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?
1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).
1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).
Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?
1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.
1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.
1 Cor. 10:6-13 – the passage is about how the Israelites, once justified before God, fell away from God. Therefore, let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (v.12). You can be standing in God’s grace, and then fall away. But God will always provide enough grace to overcome the temptation (v.13).
1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory “once saved, always saved.”
2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.
2 Cor. 11:2-3 – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”
Gal. 1:8-9 – Paul says, “if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel to that which we preached to you…let him be accursed.” Paul says “if we,” which means he believed even the sacred writers (currently “saved”) could fall away from the true faith and teach a heretical gospel.
Gal. 4:9 – Paul asks those who know God how they can now turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves they once were. Paul acknowledges and warns of this possibility.
Gal. 5:1 – Paul writes that the Galatians are free in Christ, but warns them to stand fast, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. You cannot be severed from Christ if you were never connected to Christ. This warning applies to those who are connected to Christ in faith.
Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God’s grace. You cannot be severed from something unless you were previously connected to it.
Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If “once saved, always saved” were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling? What is there to fear if salvation is assured?
Phil. 3:11-14 – Paul writes that “if possible,” he may attain the resurrection, says he is not perfect, and presses on toward the prize of salvation. Paul has no presumption of salvation but works it out in fear and trembling.
Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which we heard. Paul warns them that it is possible to turn away and lose hope in the gospel.
Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.
1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.
1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.
1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit “expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” God Himself is telling us that some people who had the faith will lose the faith.
1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul says that some have already turned away and gone after Satan. There is never any distinction between falling away from a true faith versus a false faith.
1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).
Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.
Heb. 3:12 – the author warns the Hebrews to take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.
Heb. 3:13-14 – the author warns the Hebrews that they need to exhort one another every day, so that none of them may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Paul teaches that we share in Christ, but only if we hold our first confidence firm to the end.
Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. There would be nothing to fear if salvation were assured.
Heb. 4:6,11 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away. The author thus exhorts us to strive to enter that rest, that no one falls by the same sort of disobedience.
Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.
Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.
Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.
Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.
Heb. 10:36: - we have the need of endurance, so that we may do the will of God and receive what is promised. There is no need for endurance to get what is promised if salvation is assured.
Heb. 10:38-39 – the author says that the righteous live by faith, but can shrink back. He then exhorts the people not to shrink back and be destroyed, but to keep their souls.
And so on. The Reformed do not just look at what Paul says. It is quite obvious.
from http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html
***This is backwards of what we see in the New Testament. First, you don’t see anywhere in the New Testament that the ‘church’ confirms the Holy Spirit. What you see is that the Holy Spirit is a gift to those that believe. ***
The Apostles received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Then, they were commanded to go and baptize - to effect the transfer of the Holy Spirit into the unbelievers.
***Obviously, the church is filled with falible humans who need a perfect comforter and guide. That comforter and guide is the Holy Spirit.***
Amen, brother. I agree with you absolutely.
Sometime back, I also said that if the Reformed had come back with:
Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again
that this might also be a reasonable summary. You are the first individual to post anything along those lines. Very good.
One must be very careful with identifying the scriptures to which Paul is referring. 1 Corinthians was written relatively early and most probably before any of the Gospels were written - certainly before Paul had seen them.
Therefore he is referring to his own letters as well as the OT. The Apostles did recognize Paul’s letters as Scripture fairly early on, but I don’t know the relative dates.
Yup. It must be a really satisfying feeling to not be like us tax collectors....
Thank you very much. I hadn’t considered this.
A conversation often teaches more than contentious debate.
As a friend once pointed out, what Scripture really says is this: “God is sovereign, we are responsible, and what’s in the middle is a mystery.”
A tip off for PDs is the obvious need to control.
This is why I tend to lump Substance Abuse problems with PDs, though I suspect the genetic component to Substance Abuse problems may be more important. But they both involve profound demonstrations of the need to control and to avoid anxiety and they both IMHO require extensive group work if any recovery is to be possible. I suspect the recovery form S-E and other PDs is lower that than from substance abuse problems.
Anyway the need to control so that anxiety can be avoided leads to an urge to prevent real dialog. Real dialog requires a willingness to think new thoughts. More robust personalities can entertain new ideas and even enjoy doing so. More fragile personalities find new ideas anxiety provoking and consequently resist them very strongly. And the standard that this forum is not "ecumenic" provides an arena in which the urge to use control to avoid anxiety can be 'free to act', so to speak.
One of the things that tips one off that what is going on is more than an everyday benign psychopathology is the almost ritual nature of the exchanges. One could almost say it was time for the sex-scandals to be brought up, and predictable that sensational, rather than thoughtful, references be provided.
This not just the perseveration noted before, but the way certain topics are used as "gambits" to prevent the kind of conversation where the S-E sufferer is not in the driver's seat. So the characteristics which present themselves here are a kind of ritualistic rigidity.
It took me quite a while to see what was going on. I finally got the image of a defense which was "a mile wide and a foot deep". The S-E fires a shot. The target tries to deal with the shot in the ways of conversation and dialog. That would involve "depth", in my metaphor.
But instead of engaging in the mutual examination of the "Shot", the S-E fires another shot, from another cannon. The target, a little frustrated, tried to deal with the second shot.
So the S-E fires from yet another cannon.
AS a variation, the S-E will misconstrue the attempts at dialog made by the target.
So, when things go the S-E's way, the target is noticeably frustrated and angry, while the S-E drives the target around the dialectical field.(As Go players might say, The S-E sufferer has "sente".) THAT is precisely what the S-E sufferer needs - affirmation of his or her self derived from controlling others and causing them pain. If the target gives up, the S-E claims a victory. (Note that When Quix announced the possibility of some vaguely defined absence from this thread, he invoked Divine Threats and Curses on any who might interpret his departure in any way that he might not like.) But often the S-E sufferer will not leave the target alone. The need for further predation requires that the struggle continue.
Well I'm not ready to give the full paper on S-E, but that should present an outline of some of it.
***So are you saying that only the Apostles recieved the Holy Spirit? ***
Mary received the Holy Spirit at the Annunciation. The Apostles (and the others in the room) received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
***Are you saying that unbelievers recieve the Holy Spirit?***
If the gift of faith is of God, and it is by His Grace alone that we believe, then you might say that.
***Are you saying that the Holy Spirit comes from baptism and not belief?***
The gift of faith is from God.
***Are you also implying that unless one is baptised by an Apostle, then the Holy Spirit hasn’t been transfered?***
The Holy Spirit is beyond us. If He wishes to enter another and bypass the Church, it is His will. We are instructed to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. This we do; we can do no other.
Well, no doubt Paul is referring there to the OT scriptures as the prophetic foundation of the Gospel, but I believe that the Gospel of Matthew began to circulate around 50 AD, while Paul's letters to the Corinthians were probably not written for six more years [56 AD].
Thus he more than likely did include Matthew's Gospel as part and parcel of "the scriptures" to which he is referring, especially since Paul, in none of his letters, ever felt the need to cover the same ground of historical facts about Jesus's ministry on earth that Matthew, Luke, and Mark did. Those writings were simply taken as "scripture" or "the Gospel truth", so to speak, by all who read them.
the almost ritual nature of the exchanges
Well, that's a little closer since the topic is ritual idolatry in Peru and Mexico, as sanctioned and encouraged by Rome.
Real dialog requires a willingness to think new thoughts. More robust personalities can entertain new ideas and even enjoy doing so. More fragile personalities find new ideas anxiety provoking and consequently resist them very strongly.
Agree completely. And those "more fragile personalities" try to deflect uncomfortable discussions away from the topic at hand which in this thread is -- ritual idolatry in Peru and Mexico, as sanctioned and encouraged by Rome.
He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate. I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high." -- Psalm 7:14-17"Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood.
Thank you, Dr. Phil.
Would it be your professional opinion that what is described above on an individual basis is what is happening with the Romanists Church in dealing with the pedophila problem, on a corporate level?
It would be my professional opinion that subjects of inquiry and study will display hostility and attempt to divert the enquirers' attention, sometimes with veiled personal attacks and sometimes with frank ones (which may or may not have a substantial basis in reality) and sometimes in other ways.
If you wish to pursue taking the Freepmail psychoanalysis of posting behavior onto the open Religion Forum, start a new thread.
But it must be academic only and not name posters or use examples of actual posts - or else there will be swift consequences because this is a thinly-veiled Freepmail flame war.
Frankly, I think you should deal with the question.
You want to talk about private individuals and the rest of us are talking about corporate issues.
By the second Wednesday of Lent I hope to have a forum up on my website where the data gathering can continue. Interested Freepers can FREEPmail me their email addies which will be used as passwords or user ID's or somesuch.
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