Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
FK: Then either God erred or God needed Paul's help.
You can word it any way you want: the Church was dying in Israel and it actually died. The Christians were kicked out of the synagogues (as Jesus said they would) and persecuted by Romans and Jews. Paul tried at first the Jews in diaspora but when that didn't work he turned to the Gentiles.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in the Bible that even suggests the Gentiles are to be included as a (second-class) "branch." The Jews do not proselytize. And Hebrews 8 is clear that there will be no need for preaching and teaching. But then again this runs into conflict with other NT authors. Nothing new.
We don't interpret that verse [Gen 6:6] the way you do because it has God admitting a mistake.
No you DON't interpret the verse at all! You can't because you are locked in this theology of a man-made "church" that doesn't allow you to read what it says. And it says in no uncertain terms "God regretted/was sorry/repented (take whichever version), or 'God took it to heart' (Septuagint) for having made man."
He meant "sorry" in the sense of "it's a shame that happened". It was nevertheless part of His plan. I'm sure He was "sorry" about the crucifixion too, but that was also a part of His plan.
Oh boy! This just keeps getting deeper and deeper. Now God was sorry this happened even though it was His plan to happen!?! How can you believe this? How can you not see the Reformed error that God is held captive of His own "plan?" That the "plan" is the highest authority to which even God is subject and has no control over? That's childish, naive and silly.
In dealing with rleigion on these forums, I have come to see great wisdom in Albert Einstein's take on the whole religion business: "the Bible [is] a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
And "[T]the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."
To which I would add mixed with some moral truths.
I am sorry, FK. We don't see eye to eye. This has been an interesting eye opener but I don't see any reason to continue this. Nothing personal.
Perhaps, but Catholics don't say the Bible is "perspicuous" and a 5-year-old can understand it as the Protestants do. Try again.
Is it not the Bible that says that with 2 or three wittnesses ANY fact can be established? Do we really believe that? If wittnesses can be credible then a single witness would be as good as nay number of them. But what stops two or threee witnesses from giving false testimony? Therefore, that statement is false.
IT is YOU say the Bible tells "YOU"
The fact remains that you cannot point to consistent early Christian writings to back up your wild claims.
All you can do is point to the reformers and their TRADITIONS on how they interpreted the Bible against Catholic teaching and than ADD your OWN interpretations to do the same.
What I'm saying here would require you to be honest with yourself.
I wish you a Blessed Day!
Speaking in riddles is done to fool those you don't want to understand, FK!
You have Jesus condoning what He knew to be Peter's false belief
No one at that time, not even the Apostles, could fathom that they were standing in front of God in human form.
Yet, apparently according to you Jesus let this go and Peter had the totally wrong impression, VALIDATED by Jesus when He confirmed that this false teaching came directly from the Father.
Peter said the truth even if he didn't understand it.
You seem to have them in conflict since you say that the Gospels contradict each other. I say they do not contradict each other.
Then you need to read them all over. The synoptic Gospels are copies of each other. The Gospel of John is not in agreement with the synoptic Gospels.
Since you have John conflicting with the other Gospels I can only assume you mean that you look at the OT through the prism of the Gospels as seen through the prism of your Church.
It's the Christ and His message in the Gospels that count, not individual author's perceptions. Christ taught what it will take for us to do in order to go to heaven (Beatitudes), and how to pray and how to conduct ourselves vis-a-vis our friends and adversaries. Much of that is missing in the OT.
Without God, the essential teachings in the Bible are not really going to ring true.
There are many people who have good hearts and who are poor in spirit who are not Christians. God's laws (or morality and virtue) are universally known to mankind. They may not have the fullness of God's revelation (through Christ's Incarnation), but they still know that doing unto others what you wouldn't want done unto you is morally wrong.
In order for the Church to select the books of the canon ti had to be able to correctly interpret them. So, the collection and interpretation were all contained within the Church.
The Church is not above the scripture; the scipture is the collection made by the Church (presumably) based on correct interpretation (and some horse-trading to boot!).
Thus, the scripture reflects what the Church believed then and what it believes now.
We cannot see God in His essence.
No one can really "see" or "understand" the Holy Trinity or Christ's duality as they really are. The Church always taught that God is incomprehensible. It was the Latin neopaganistic Greek influence that led the Church in the west in the wrong direction believing that we can comprehend God.
Our likeness to God is not intelligence but spirit. Humility, mercy, purity of heart, the Beatitudes...if we do as Christ did because we died unto ourselves and follow Him completely, then we are like Him, but never Him.
Hardly. I just don't believe legends and mix-and-match stories being made up in the Bible. If people know God in their minds and his laws in their hearts (Heb 8:10) and the Bible is "perspiuous" they don't need preaching. Either Heb 8 is lying or the Bible is not perspicuous. I vote for the latter.
Aain, Orthodox Christians fllow the Septuagint, the OT version used by the Apostles in 93% of the cases. Prov 16:4 doesn't exist in Septuagint. You are right: we have nothig to talk about.
The Church decided what the canon will be. That included those books which the non-RCC "Christians" find "repugnant." It was them who changed the canon. Fine, it's their right, but that doesn't make them Christians either.
Why would she? They don't have any "special authority" and most of what they proclaim is not Scriptural, such as this blasphemy that they have the power of God to "bind and loosen".
Mark 2:7 Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?
The hierarchy of the EO and RCC are no different than the scribes of Jesus' day.
He just gave the all the keys to bind and loosen, and promises that whatever they (the select ones, the clergy) bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.
Just self serving institutional nonsense.
What is the Key to the Kingdom?
What happens to those that have the Key?
What happens to those that do not have the Key?
To help those that kept it locked up for so many years learn what's actually in it.
***What is the Key to the Kingdom?
What happens to those that have the Key?
What happens to those that do not have the Key?***
Very perceptive questions.
The Old Testament keeper of the keys is the immediate subordinate of the supreme power of the land. Number two, as it were.
The number two speaks with the authority of the king.
Those without the keys do not.
***WShy do Protestants write so many books when the Bible is supposed to be “perspicuous?”
To help those that kept it locked up for so many years learn what’s actually in it.***
Until Gutenberg, the Church was the only means of keeping and producing accurate Bibles. And then they got Gutenberg to produce Bibles with his printing press. Hardly locked up. I guess that you have also forgotten that nearly 95% of Europe was illiterate until that point as well. Even if the people had Bibles in their homes, what would they have done with them? Looked at the pretty pictures?
Random verse generator again. That verse says nothing about the authority. You are quoting out of context.That verse has been quoted and re-quoted ad nauseum. What does it mean?
"Authority?"
I wonder if the RCs and EOs realize how often they use that word, "authority," as some kind of mystical moving van in their attempt to vacate the office of the Holy Spirit and replace it with all the moldy furniture of the magisterium and its doctrines of men.
Where one person is who has received God's grace through faith in Christ there is a member of Christ's church. Where two or more such people are gathered in His name there is Christ's church on earth; His congregation of believers. And "there am I in the midst of them."
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." -- John 14:26
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." -- 1 John 2:27
Some men are taught by the Holy Spirit, and those men meet in a church to worship God in truth. Other men forsake the graciousness of God and attempt to assign the work of the Holy Spirit to a body of fallible men to dole out as they see fit.
Beautifully said, Amen!
There should be a remedial reading class assignment for all who don't understand the sovereignty of God.
Some men are taught by the Holy Spirit, and those men meet in a church to worship God in truth. Other men forsake the graciousness of God and attempt to assign the work of the Holy Spirit to a body of fallible men to dole out as they see fit.
And what's the end result when this happens?
We get purgatory, indulgences, praying for the dead, treasury of merit, transubstantiation, Maryolatory and clerics who place themselves above other Christians as "another Christ".
EXACTLY!
And in their refusal to hold themselves and their faith accountable to the word of God, they absorb pagan beliefs, empty rituals, "vain jangling," and worst of all, they misunderstand what true justification means -- saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." -- 2 Timothy 4:2-4"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Just so you know.
This Mac Arthur guy you’re defending says this...
The Bible nowhere speaks of the eternal sonship of Christ . . . .He was always God, but He became Son. He had not always had the title of Son. That is His incarnation title. Eternally He is God, but only from His incarnation has He been Son . . . . Christ was not Son until His incarnation. Before that He was eternal God. It is therefore incorrect to say the (sic) Jesus Christ is eternally inferior to God because He goes under the title of Son. He is no “eternal Son” always subservient to God, always less than God, always under God. Sonship is an analogy to help us understand Christ’s essential relationship and willing submission to the Father for the sake of our redemption. As already mentioned, the today of verse 5 (Heb.1:5) shows that His sonship began in a point of time, not in eternity. His life as Son began in this world . . . .He was not a son until He was born into this world through the virgin birth . . . .The sonship of Christ is inextricably connected with His incarnation [emphasis his]. [John MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur New Testament Commentary—Hebrews (Chicago: Moody Press, 1983), pp. 22-23 (though in some editions the page numbering is different, see his comments under Hebrews 1:4-5).]
“. . . the terms ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ would have no significance before the incarnation.” (p. 5).
Some 900 years before Jesus was born God prophesied, “I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me” (Heb.1:5; 2 Sam. 7:14), indicating that in eternity past that, though there were always three persons in the Trinity, there were not yet the roles of Father and Son. Those designations apparently came into being only at the incarnation. In the announcement of Jesus’ birth to Mary, the angel Gabriel declared, “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High;...the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God” [Luke 1:32,35]. Son was a new name, never before applied to the second person of the Godhead except prophetically, as in Psalm 2:7, which is interpreted in Hebrews 1:5-6 as referring to the event of His incarnation. John wrote, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). Only when “the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us” as “the only begotten God” (John 1:14,18) did He take on the role and function of Son [emphasis his]. [John MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur New Testament Commentary—Galatians (Chicago: Moody Press, 1987), p.108 (see his comments under Galatians 4:4).]
A great verse to read Matt. 18:15-18 in context with.
***”Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” — 2 Timothy 4:2-4***
Does that mean that you will repudiate the WCF?
Wonderful reply, Dr. E. You are so right on!
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