Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Curious. Where does the Holy Spirit come in utilizing this methodology? Are you merely mechanically doing things that seem right to you just in case God wills it?
I'm not sure what you're asking. For all the good we do, God wills it. That includes preaching. God is the first cause. It is not that God "agrees" with us when we choose to do good. God made the choice first, and then we carried it out.
The Reformed non elect are going to hellfire and damnation forever. How in the world could they benefit?
You seem to think that tying one's shoes in the morning has salvific implications. :) Of course any benefits to the non-elect, all non-elect including Catholic non-elect, would only be of any use during this life. All of the non-elect share the same eternity, but they obviously have very different qualities of lives here on earth.
There is a vast difference between belief and knowledge. I think that it might appear to be a factor in some of the discussions and disagreements that go on here. I believe in God, the Father almighty... I know that the sun rises in the east.
I would say that I know both. In fact, I would be MORE surprised if there was no God than if the sun didn't rise tomorrow.
But does not God give knowledge?
2 Chron 1:11-12(a) : 11 God said to Solomon, "Since this is your heart's desire and you have not asked for wealth, riches or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king, 12 therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you. ...
Prov 1:7 : The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
Prov 2:6 : For the Lord gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
Okay. Maybe it wasn't a thought after all ....
It's a fine thought. If I understand the term correctly, then yes, I would object to anyone having (being able to have) the charisms at all, so naturally I would object to anyone claiming to have them. The second has to flow from the first.
FK-For all the good we do, God wills it.
FK-Of course any benefits to the non-elect... would only be of any use during this life. All of the non-elect share the same eternity, but they obviously have very different qualities of lives here on earth.
It is my strong belief (and I think this is evidence in scripture with the rich man and Lazarus) that there are simply some who would rather face the torment of hell then to live eternity glorifying God. This is the way things were made.
Something created all this, directly or indirectly, FK, and that somehting we call God. Whether that something is really God is not certain. But we believe it is.
We really don't have a concise definition of God. We don't know God. We only "know" Him through the relaity of our world, the seemingly endless universe, whatever the "voices" inside of us told us, and what we are willing to believe.
Chances are we will not discover for sure what made all this in our lifetime, so we wll continue to call it God, and there is no sure way of knowing if we will know about it when we are dead.
As far as the sun not rising tomorrow, there is a very real possibility of that, too, FK.
And the devil rules the earth by the same "methodology" I suppose? Or is the devil an "independent" contractor in the Reformed world?
By right we should all have been exterminated long ago
I guess the Neanderthals know.
So He causes the sun to shine on the just and unjust and provides air to breathe for those who would curse His name as well as praise it
Unless you are the bad pharaoh or just happen to be born Judas...and both of you are needed as villians in the earhtly sopa opera.
It is my strong belief (and I think this is evidence in scripture with the rich man and Lazarus) that there are simply some who would rather face the torment of hell then to live eternity glorifying God
The sotry of rich man and the beggar in Luke speaks of the Jewish idea of the Sheol, the underworld for the dead souls. The beggar is "carried by the angels" into the "bossom of Abraham" not with Christ!) and the rich man is simply buried when both of them die. Obviously Luke didn't even have a notion of heaven at that stage of Christainity, or he simply worte down what Paul believed. Hello?
{re: Rom 1:21} People KNOW there is a God. It is revealed all around them. They simply suppress the truth about God because they do not wish to glorify Him.
Why, because +Paul says so? People conclude there is God because the world exists and something had to make it. Whatever our fancy makes of it is God to us. We really dont know what made all this, but we clal it God anyway, because it's a mystey to us. That doesn't mean we can't make up feel-good stories about it.
People KNOW there is a God. It is revealed all around them. They simply suppress the truth about God because they do not wish to glorify Him.
AMEN! Alamo-Girl always reminds us God is revealed in the creation, and here Paul is clearly telling us that very fact.
All men were created in the image of God, and all men carry this imprint on them as if it were an implanted I.D. chip saying "This, too, belongs to God."
Paul then continues to tell us that some of these men are left in their natural disobedience to God and thus they will be vessels to display His wrath.
And some men will have their sins paid for by Christ, and their minds quickened by the Holy Spirit, and a new heart will be given to them in place of their stone heart, and thus they will repent and obey and believe, by Christ within them. And these men will be vessels to display God's mercy.
"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" -- Romans 9:20
Each man is responsible, and none is without excuse. But some men are left in condemnation, and some men are called and thus, acquitted by Christ, according to God's holy purpose.
O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary. We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name." -- Isaiah 63:16-19 "...thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
"We are thine...they were not called by thy name."
The fact that the only thing separating the redeemed from the condemned is that God has named us as His family should make us all even more sober and humble -- nothing distinguishes us from the lost except the love God has for His Son, mercifully given to us as a free, unmerited, transformative gift of pure grace.
Like the last line from Frost's poem, "The Road Not Taken" -- "And that has made all the difference."
Truly, man has no excuse for not noticing God.
The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good. - Psalms 14:1
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. - John 10:3-5
Isn't that a beautiful line?
"...the voice of strangers..."
***I disagree that love is not an action. I work at loving my loved ones all the time.***
Love cannot be an action. You may work at it, attempt to maintain it or grow it, or act upon it in the manner that you choose, but it is not an emotion, nor is it an action.
***But you demand perfection from believers and that does not happen.***
I do? Where?
***Your side says the only other possibility is confession to a priest.***
It’s only Scriptural. And Apostolic.
***True believers do sin on occasion, but never to a level that would cause the loss of salvation.***
I keep forgetting where it says that in Scripture. I have brought up many verses which show the opposite, including from Paul - rightfully quoted.
***There is NO exception, explicit or implied, for the believer to snatch himself away from God. That is SOLELY anti-Biblical (not extra-Biblical) Tradition.***
Heb 4:
4
For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this manner, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works”;
5
and again, in the previously mentioned place, “They shall not enter into my rest.”
6
Therefore, since it remains that some will enter into it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience,
Formerly received? Only true believers can receive Christ. If you formerly believed and then disobeyed and will not enter into heaven, then you can lose your salvation.
The thing is that we believe, as the Apostles did, that the Grace of God is the enabling power to allow us to be saved. We can reject that power and put our souls into peril:
Heb 10:
26
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
27
but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.
Paul here is disagreeing with the Reformed in a rather obvious manner.
John 10. No one can take them. But as we see from Paul, what this really means is that satan has no power over us when we are empowered by the Grace of God, than we give to him. He can lead but we do not have to follow. He cannot snatch us, but we certainly can go where he leads.
***I’m not sure what you’re asking. For all the good we do, God wills it. That includes preaching. God is the first cause. It is not that God “agrees” with us when we choose to do good. God made the choice first, and then we carried it out.***
Micromanagement? Are you saying that God chooses everything that we do? If I get hail damage on my car from the storm today, it’s God’s will? If I decide to go into a nudie bar or get drunk that it’s God’s will? How can I possibly sin if everything that happens is God’s micromanaged ‘plan”?
Back to the old “God is the author of evil” POV? Algore getting the jet set treatment for massively lying to the world is God’s will? The vicious attacks on Mother Teresa are God’s will? Jeffrey Dahmer is God’s will? I still can’t seem to reconcile that with the message of love and salvation that I read from the Gospels.
***Of course any benefits to the non-elect, all non-elect including Catholic non-elect, would only be of any use during this life. All of the non-elect share the same eternity, but they obviously have very different qualities of lives here on earth.***
Are you saying that if you read Scripture to a non elect who couldn’t appreciate it anyway that he’d get a better job, or a new car, or a wonderful wife or something like that? Where is this Scrfpturally supported?
***I would say that I know both.***
As kosta and I have repeatedly said: you must separate belief from knowledge because they are two different things.
***But does not God give knowledge?***
There is still the difference between belief and knowledge. God may inspire me to develop the final Grand Unified Theory so that I may have knowledge of the math, but my relationship with Him is belief.
St. Thomas again...
***It is given to Him to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. We are instruments if He chooses to use us but if not we are still commanded to share the good news.***
I’d like to know how the programming is inputted; and I still don’t get why the Good News is required to be preached to the Reformed non elect except as possibly a way for personal wealth.
***Everyone benefits from God’s grace. By right we should all have been exterminated long ago. Yet God is long suffering. So He causes the sun to shine on the just and unjust and provides air to breathe for those who would curse His name as well as praise it.***
How do the Reformed non elect benefit from God’s grace? I thought that the Reformed position was that they couldn’t receive it. If nobody preached the Gospel to these unfortunates, then is God going to remove sun and air from them? Is that why you have to do it?
I’m not getting it and I seem to be getting it less with each response.
***It is my strong belief (and I think this is evidence in scripture with the rich man and Lazarus) that there are simply some who would rather face the torment of hell then to live eternity glorifying God.***
You just may swim the Tiber yet. That is the most Catholic thing you’ve said in a long time. Unless you wanna head east with brothers Kolo and kosta, that is.
If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask them anyway what the original Greek says in Rom 1:21. I thought that the line meant that they knew of God and that they had had the Good News of Jesus preached to them and were baptized and then chose not to practice the faith.
But, no, I will never swim the Tiber. If I would have lived at the time of Luther I would have probably have handed him the hammer.
BTW-I've recently discovered that it is entirely possible one of my very distance relatives was a great Reformer, a converted Jesuit priest who was a theological doctor at one of the Catholic schools. During the Reformation the Catholics sought to kill him when he converted and preached against the Catholic Church. Wanting to reform the Church must run in the family.
” BTW-I’ve recently discovered that it is entirely possible one of my very distance relatives was a great Reformer, a converted Jesuit priest who was a theological doctor at one of the Catholic schools. During the Reformation the Catholics sought to kill him when he converted and preached against the Catholic Church. Wanting to reform the Church must run in the family.”
That’s neat! I have Jesuit relatives too and most of the family says they’re heretics just like your relative! :)
Good point, WM. I think they would argue that it wasn't little, but compared to what we know really happened it really is, imo.
Reformed theology, to put simply: we are who we are, what we are and where we are because God willed it.
This means the good and the evil. God created the good and the evil to fulfill His "plan." So, no person in the world that lived, lives or will ever live is anything but another cog on God's wheel, driving towards the completion of the "plan."
In other words, to God, good and evil are simply "tools" in His workshop, and to the extent that they fulfill His "plan" (which si always, of course), they are both "good."
Add to this double predestination, and you discover that it makes no difference what we do or say (even though the Bible says otherwise in no uncertain terms), our fate has been predestined by God's choice. Thus, behind Judas is really God!
Luther set out to reform Church practices, and he and his followers ended up deforming Christianity, indeed God Himself!
***How do we know who is the elect and the non-elect. If the elect had a big “X” tatooed on their forehead it would be easy.***
Hmm. You know what to do since God micromanages every move and thought of your elect life, yet you don’t know if someone else is elect. Is this program missing a few subroutines?
Look, it’s not a great step. The Reformed elect say that they know that they are of the elect. You preach the Gospel to people who do not have that surety inside. You say that if you are of the elect, then you know it. They don’t know it. Therefore they are of the non elect. Therefore they may come to the conclusion that you are taunting them with eternal rewards that they cannot attain.
A side question: are there any Reformed who believe that they are of the non elect? Why?
***I used “grace” not in a salvation sense but in a general sense. God would be rightful and just to strike us all down. Instead He allows us to live our lives and provides for even those who would profane His Holiness.***
What does that have to do with preaching the Gospel to the non elect?
***For a more thorough reading may I suggest the Westminster Confession. It is an excellent document complete with refereneces.***
It is a most excellent document and I am indebted to the good Dr. E. for bringing it to my attention repeatedly. I have read it through many times and read some studies on it. It certainly ranks with anything written by Nestorius, Arius or any of the Gnostics. My appreciation to those who are not embarrassed to use a government bureaucratic panel, commission, bought, paid for, and ratified by the Parliament of England.
***BTW-I’ve recently discovered that it is entirely possible one of my very distance relatives was a great Reformer, a converted Jesuit priest who was a theological doctor at one of the Catholic schools. During the Reformation the Catholics sought to kill him when he converted and preached against the Catholic Church. Wanting to reform the Church must run in the family.***
You must come from a line that contained Roger Bannister.
***This means the good and the evil. God created the good and the evil to fulfill His “plan.” So, no person in the world that lived, lives or will ever live is anything but another cog on God’s wheel, driving towards the completion of the “plan.”
In other words, to God, good and evil are simply “tools” in His workshop, and to the extent that they fulfill His “plan” (which si always, of course), they are both “good.” ***
Many of the reformed clap their theological hands over their religious ears and say “la la la I can’t hear you”. The few will tippy toe around this minefield and play word games.
Most of the theology centers around the elect - they are called the children of God, the selected elite elect, and the people of God etc. etc. - but very little on those that the Reformed claim are created to be excrement in the cesspool of hell forever in everlasting torment. They are tossed off the religious cliff in a handful of sentences in such as the WCF.
I can’t even get a straight answer to the question: if God micromanages everything, then is God responsible if I go to that nudie bar or get drunk? If He is not, then God does not micromanage everything and this whole idea of “God is completely in control of everything” shatters into nothing.
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