Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
But, FK, you are telling me what God is like because you a priori accept as truth what is written about Him. I am simply using your own style and it seems to irritate you. Welcome to the club!
You are defining reality according to your beliefs, as a matter of fact. Those who don't share your beliefs are simply classified as spiritually "blind" and "deaf." Yet, you don't have a shred of evidence to prove anything because the "proof" requires that one already believe in order to have the "eyes" and "ears."
If faith is given, then no amount of text-proofing and cherry-picking the Bible will "prove" anything. But the Protestants say God gives faith, yet they use the Bible to "prove" that which they cannot give, namely faith! How silly is that?
What's the use of showing pictures to a blind man? What's the point of playing music to a deaf man? What's the use of showing Bible verses to a nonbeliever? What effort is it to "prove" the Bible to someone who already believes? It's all Protestant/Baptist feel-good, man-made stuff, FK. It's all fluff. It's a same-minded club where everyone goes around quoting the Bible and everyone saying "Amen, Amen!" and patting each other on the back.
To you, the Eucharist is a symbol or a ritual. To the Orthodox and Catholic it is a mystery (sacrament) of God's real presence. It's a matter of belief. It's not something one can objectively prove. And we state it as such every Sunday
It's our belief.
I am too, FK. This is what you wrote:
This is pure conjecture. First, what is the low level "true" faith? Then, how do you know that sanctification begins? Because you are tested? Or is this sanctification now a fucntion of some other factors you didn't come up with earlier?
Second, how does it benefit us if finding "true" faith is salvific? Is there a greater benefit than what Christ accomplished on the Cross? Sure seems that way from the way you write.
Third, our sanctification make us more "useful" [sic] to God so He can finish His "plan?" Are we "helping" God along?
This brings up some problems, FK. What about Judas. Was he also "helping" God accomplish His "plan?" Was he also "sanctified?" Does this mean that somehow, in a twisted heretic way, Judas was really a "friend" of Jesus? "Helping" Him accomplish His task? After all, without Judas' betrayal, Jesus could not die for our sins!
Or did Judas have no power to do but what God destined him to do, in which case he did nothing wrong?!? He was just one of those useful but disposable human beings the Reformed God created for His own glory?
The lord in the metaphor didn't talk about going in and coming out..
He was concerned about getting them out.. but being sheep they could wander back in, I suppose.. The lord Jesus never used the word heresy or even developed the meme of it.. Since theres no ONE pen the inhabitants of one pen would naturally see the inhabitants of another pen as heretics.. Since the walls of the metaphorical pen are dogma, ceremony and/or tradition and possibly intimidation.. Its easy to lose track of what we are talking about here..
Starving in the pen is a good point.. The wisdom would be get out of the pen were there is much food that don't smell of ammonia or shut up and eat the grain you are given.. The lord reacted strongly to the pen of the synagogue..
***Yes or no, does man determine what God’s revelation to man is?***
Of course not. God’s revelation is His and not man’s.
On the other hand, fallible men can fall short of understanding that revelation.
***That depends on whether we say the Bible is a work of men, or a work of God through men. If we say the latter, then all of your above, ......... well .......... goes away. :)***
God is perfect; men are not. Example: Beethoven created some of the most perfect music that has ever been created. If a pianist cannot play it well, is that Beethoven’s fault?
BTTT
Thats the spirit.. get into the metaphor don't fear it..
Breathe, breathe, must remember to breathe ....
The lord in the metaphor didn't talk about going in and coming out..
Not sure if relevant but I was thinking John 10:7-9, especially. "...(7)I am the door of the sheep ... (9)I am the door; if any one enters by me he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. ..."
Thats the spirit.. get into the metaphor don't fear it..
Breathe, breathe, must remember to breathe ....
The lord in the metaphor didn't talk about going in and coming out..
Not sure if relevant but I was thinking John 10:7-9, especially. "...(7)I am the door of the sheep ... (9)I am the door; if any one enters by me he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. ..."
Thanks hosepipe for a very thoughtful idea. We can note also that these pens have a porter, which is more like a prison cell than a sheep pen.
The pens are more likely for slaughter
“It’s not my FAULT!” (Han Solo)
It is always your fault
Perhaps the idea of the open courtyard can refer to the temple, and "the sheep" outside of the main "house."
Sheepies really do seem to be very "auditory". I had several who would come when called, and sheep who are calm and even affectionate around their owners would spook at me when I came to check 'em out or to shear them.
But sheepies are penned for protection from predators. I don't know when guardian dogs came into use. My two Great Pyrenees were wonderful dogs, as people, but were not perfect as guardians. And without guardian dogs, penning them at night would make sense now that coyotes have moved in next door. I lost two really good lambs once (I might haave used one for a stud), and coyotes were our best guess.
Are we married?
What is very interesting with the word "flocks" and "cattle" etc. is that in the bible you will find different words used, in the Hebrew especially, which gives another higher meaning to some flocks, ie, believers.
No pardner, this ain’t no “Brokeback Republic”, but that was funny. You crack me up
And also interesting, the temple had porters, gatekeepers.
BTTT
If Jesus were accused of NOT knowing about the future denominations and schismatic penchant of "the sheep" this metaphor might be used as evidence.. OF PROPHECY..
Kosta to FK -””He uses the good and the evil to accomplish His plan, isn’t that what your theology teaches? This is not an endorsement of Mohammad’s work any more than saying that Judas did his part in God’s plan. Did either have a choice? “”
After all God gives us faith or lack of faith; God hardens our hearts or he doesn’t. God saves some and God destroys others. It’s all the Reformed God’s doing.””
Blessed Thomas Aquinas sums this up beautifully....
That in God there can be no Evil
“ESSENTIAL being, and essential goodness, and all other things that bear the name of ‘essential,’ contain no admixture of any foreign element; although a thing that is good may contain something else besides being and goodness, for there is nothing to prevent the subject of one perfection being the subject also of another. Everything is contained within the bounds of its essential idea in such sort as to render it incapable of containing within itself any foreign element. But God is goodness, not merely good. There cannot therefore be in Him anything that is not goodness, and so evil cannot be in Him at all.
3. As God is His own being, nothing can be said of God that signifies participation. If therefore evil could be predicated of Him, the predication would not signify participation, but essence. Now evil cannot be predicated of any being so as to be the essence of any: for to an essentially evil thing there would be wanting being, since being is good.* There cannot be any extraneous admixture in evil, as such, any more than in goodness. Evil therefore cannot be predicated of God.
5. A thing is perfect in so far as it is in actuality: therefore it will be imperfect inasmuch as it is failing in actuality. Evil therefore is either a privation, or includes a privation, or is nothing. But the subject of privation is potentiality; and that cannot be in God: therefore neither can evil.
This truth also Holy Scripture confirms, saying: God is light, and there is no darkness in Him, (I John i, 5) Far from God impiety, and iniquity from the Almighty (Job xxxiv, 10). “” Thomas Aquinas - Of God and His Creatures
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