Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Yes, I think that's huge. I think both sides would say Christ accomplished everything He intended, but we disagree with them on what that was. I happen to think the Apostolic view is that Christ accomplished very little on the cross in objective reality. Especially during this Easter season, whenever I even TRY to contemplate what He went through for us, it does not OCCUR to me that it would mean so little as our friends portray it. We all agree that God did what He did for a reason. We are left to figure out if He was trying to do a big thing or a little thing. Since it involved His very DEATH, I am inclined to think it was a big thing. But most Apostolics disagree, implicitly (or comparatively).
Where the Bible and the Church disagree the private interpretation of the Bible that allowed such conclusion is in error.
So in your opinion, the church and the Bible never disagree?
Correct. The Catholic a.k.a. Orthodox Church produced the New Testament and gave the world the way to understand the Old Testament.
The Church does not disagree with the Bible.
Yes, that is the inescapable conclusion that I see. Men need to be in control.
So when the Bible says that an Overseer (Bishop) must be the husband of one wife, and his children must treat him with respect, you allow your Bishops to be married, right?
***Men need to be in control.***
That’s what I tell my wife every day... then I duck :>)
“God gave us the Church”
Where do you find “God gave us the Church” in the scriptures? The church is the “Bride of Christ” given to Him by the Father; not to us. We are given gifts by the Holy Spirit to make disciples, not to make the church.
Alex: Sure we do, and Matt 7:17-20 does not say otherwise. When a heathen does good works he does so because some intuitive knowledge of Christ, howbeit imperfect, has guided him
Absolutely! The source of all good is God and only God.
PS welcome back dear Alex. Our hearts are with your loss. Memory eternal.
Yes, the Apostles saw that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies in Scripture,thus knowing Jesus is God made flesh.
The early Church Fathers recognized it through Tradition and typology(the Old Testament revealed in the New Testament)Thus making the canon process of Scripture easy to recognize apart from the gnostic gospels.
Typology from Scripture Catholic
Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus in His Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension
Psalm 16:10; 30:3 - He will not be spared from death and yet remain incorrupt - Acts 2:31; 13:33,35 - Jesus conquered death and remained incorrupt.
Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? - Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34 - Jesus utters this rabbinical formula from the cross declaring that He is the Messiah.
Psalm 22:7 - the people will wag their heads at Him - Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29 - the people wagged their heads at Jesus on the cross.
Psalm 22:7 - He will be mocked - Matt. 27:31; Mark 15:20; Luke 22:63; 23:36 - Jesus was mocked.
Psalm 22:16; Isa. 53:12 - He will be numbered with the transgressors - Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18 - Jesus was numbered with the transgressors by being crucified between two thieves.
Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 - His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born - John 19:23,34,37 - Jesus’ hands and feet were pierced and his followers wept for Him, the true first-born Son of Israel.
Psalm 22:17 - they will stare and gloat over Him - Matt. 27:36; Luke 23:35 - the people stood by and stared at Jesus on the cross.
Psalm 22:18 - they will divide His garments among them - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23 - they divided Jesus’ garments among them.
Psalm 22:18 - they will cast lots for His garments - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24 - they cast lots for Jesus’ garments.
Psalm 30:3; 41:10, 118:17; Hos 6:2 - He will be raised to life on the third day - Acts 13:33, Matt. 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:34,46 - Jesus was raised to life on the third day.
Psalm 34:20 - He will not have broken bones - John 19:33,36 - none of Jesus’ bones were broken.
Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 - He will be betrayed by a friend - Matt. 10:4; 26:20-25; Mark 14:18-21; John 13:18 - Jesus was betrayed by a friend.
Psalm 68:18 - He will ascend into heaven - Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:9 - Jesus ascended into heaven.
Psalm 68:20 - He will escape the powers of death - Acts 2:31; 13:33; Matt 28:6; Mark 16:6, Luke 24:46; John 20:9-10 - Jesus escaped the powers of death through his resurrection.
Psalm 69:21 - they will give Him vinegar to drink - Matt. 27:34,48; Mark 15:23,36; Luke 23:36; John 19:29 - they gave Jesus vinegar to drink.
Psalm 110:1 - He will sit at the right hand of God - Heb. 1:3; Acts 2:34-35 - Jesus sits at the right hand of God.
Isaiah 50:6 - He will be spat upon - Matt. 26:67; Mark 15:19 - Jesus was spat upon.
Isaiah 50:6; Mic. 5:1 - the ruler of Israel's cheek will be struck - Matt. 26:67; Luke 22:63; John 18:22 - Jesus was so struck and beaten.
Isaiah 53:5; Zech. 13:6 - He was wounded, bruised and scourged for us - Matt. 27:26; Mark 15:15; John 19:1 - Jesus was wounded, bruised and scourged for us.
Isaiah 53:7 - He will remain silent before His accusers - Matt. 27:12,14; Mark 14:61;15:5; Luke 23:9; John 19:9 - Jesus remained silent before His accusers.
Isaiah 53:8-10; Dan. 9:26 - the anointed one shall be cut off and die - Luke 23:46; 24:7; John 19:30 - Jesus the Messiah died.
Isaiah 53:9 - He will be buried in a rich man's tomb - Matt. 27:57-60; Mark 15:42-46; Luke 23:50-53; John 19:38-42 - Jesus was buried in a rich man's tomb (the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea).
Isaiah 53:12 - He will make intercession for the transgressors - Luke 23:34,43 - Jesus made intercession for the transgressors on the cross.
Amos 8:9 - God will darken the earth at noon - Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44-45 - there was darkness at noon at Jesus’ crucifixion and death.
Jonah 1:17 - three nights and days in the belly of the whale foreshadows Jesus’ death and rising on the third day.
Mic. 1:8 - He will lament and wail, and will go stripped and naked - John 19:23-24 - Jesus lamented and was stripped and naked.
Zech. 11:12-13 - He will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver - Matt. 26:15 - Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.
Zech. 11:13 - the pieces of silver are cast into God's house - Matt. 27:5 - Judas threw the pieces of silver into the Temple.
Zech. 12:10 - His side will be pierced - John 19:34, 37 - Jesus’ side was pierced.
Zech. 13:7 - He will be forsaken by His disciples who will scatter - Matt. 26:31, Mark. 14:50 - Jesus’ disciples forsook Him and scattered.
Writings from the Church Fathers
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155).
“[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen.” Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 (A.D. 157).
“For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, ‘Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;’ He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,20:1 (A.D. 180).
What presumption! I'd laugh if your comment weren't so theologically pathetic. MS, look, your beliefs are not anything recognized by The Church. You may sincerely believe you have found them in the bible we gave you. I assure you you have not. You may claim that you understand what "The Body of Christ" is. I assure you you do not. I know that because I know what the men who decided on the canon of the NT believed and how they prayed. I believe the exact same things and pray the exact same way they did and The Church has done that for the past 1700 years. You don't.
Now you, despite your heretical beliefs, may be further advanced in theosis than I am. I don't know. I don't know if theosis is possible for those who refuse The Faith. I do know that by dying to the self in a life spent in a liturgical community focused on Christ in the Eucharist does indeed lead to theosis. But if theosis can be found outside The Church, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you were further along than me, as I am a terrible sinner.
Further contentions with you, however, are of no spiritual profit whatsoever. I am sure you are familiar with this from Titus:
"A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted and sinneth, being condemned of himself".
The Fathers found use for the passage on a regular basis. Its advice I"ll heed.
Mat 16:18 "on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."
The church is the “Bride of Christ” given to Him by the Father
Ummm, where does it say that?
We are given gifts by the Holy Spirit to make disciples, not to make the church
The Great Commission was given to the eleven Apostles, not to the laity! So, I don't know who is "we" in this case.
Also the Church is hierarchical by divine appointment (cf. Eph 4:11). Not everyone has been given to evangelize or to be his own "pope."
That simply means that a bishop may not have more than one wife. It doesn't mean that a bishop must be married. Unmarried bishops is a discipline the Eastern Churches adopted as a matter of choice and dedication to Christ and the Holy Apostles.
If you believe this contradicts the Bible, then St. Paul does so too when he urges celibacy. Celibacy and virginity were considered virtues by the earliy Christians, including and especially St. Paul, the Desert Fathers, and the monastics who followed in their steps, ultimately imitating our Lord Jesus Christ who was a vergin, celibate and unmarried.
This is simply Church discipline, a choice, perfectly allowed. Your argument is on thin ice because Christ commanded us to pray only one prayer. Does that mean we cannot have any other prayers, lest we violate the Bible?
I hope you are beginning to understand where literalist private interpretations lead and why the Bible warns against them.
Truly impressive. Thank you.
Thank you; I have stayed away form long threads lately, but got pinged.
It is your amazing private interpretations that worry me.
“Mat 16:18 “on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”
Where in that verse does it say the church was given to anyone?
“The church is the “Bride of Christ” given to Him by the Father
Ummm, where does it say that?”
Eph. 1:17-23, “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”
“The Great Commission was given to the eleven Apostles, not to the laity! So, I don’t know who is “we” in this case.”
Well, Luke 24:33-50 and Acts 1 say that there many more than the eleven, including women who were given the command “that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” and “ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Taken as a whole the “Great Commission” was given to the Apostles, disciples and to the women and Acts 2 says they all were preaching and making disciples after the promised coming of the Holy Spirit.
Surprisingly, "NO". I'm not positive, but I think that all Reformed churches, and most churches who tolerate Reformed views (like mine) do not require a water baptism here. We (SBC churches) require a believer's baptism to become a member, but not to partake of the Supper. Anyone who professes to God [honor system] that he is a true believer is welcome to take the Supper. We know there will be false believers who "get through", but there is no practical way we see of weeding them out. :)
"In extremis" was a term used in my Protestant growing up household so I just figgered ... The desire for economy of words leads to jargon leads to confusion.
That's cool. I think it is one of those things I "should have known", so it was my fault. I must have been thinking about skirts that day. It's happened. (I mean, a long time ago). LOL!
AMEN MARY!!! :) My pastor pushes your thought every week. Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship, and a personal one at that.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.