objectivity in many of . . . posts especially dealing with the Church and with UFOs.
Wonderful to see such improved candor about your posts. And with such humor!
Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
***Analogies to human relationships with each other always fall ultimately short, but here it is clear that even good humans would not do what the other side supposes God does. ***
The analogy here was human adoption. The folks 2 millennia ago had a full appreciation of what adoption is and what all the ramifications were. I think that they used the term advisedly.
***There is no such thing as ping-pong salvation. God’s plan was not for us to spend our time on earth twisting in the wind.***
God doesn’t make plans. All has existed and all exists for Him.
It is for us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. With the constant help of the Church and the Holy Spirit. The 12 tribes of Israel rejected Christ who was here to claim them.
Jesus came and died and was resurrected for us; He left His Church for us because what God was supplying the Jews with was insufficient for them.
***How much more of a promise of salvation can we have than, “I will never leave you or forsake you.”***
It doesn’t take into account that we can leave Him. God has promised us salvation; we don’t have to accept it.
***That is, there would have to be a showing of parental unfitness. My children could not “divorce” themselves from my custody “just because”. I would assume it works the same in the case of legal adoption. ***
Then you would assume wrong. A divorce from adoptive parents, while unusual, can still occur at the request of the adoptive child for any reason, or none given, once they (depends on jurisdiction) approach or surpass the age of majority.
***As with my example, I would imagine such a thing happens very seldom. However, in the victim’s mind he IS damned, even though the truth is otherwise. This potential is one reason I object to the power claimed.***
I seriously doubt it. If the Holy Spirit would forgive a deserving individual, I think that any doubt or feeling of damnation would be lifted as well.
***I don’t see where you address my point at all. The Bible says (promises) that those who truly believe on Christ are saved. Yet, Catholicism says “maybe”. My analogy compares the promise (scripture) with the reality in Catholicism (something very different).***
If you truly believe in Christ, then you will do your best (with the help of the Holy Spirit and the Church) to act in the manner which we are commanded to act.
If you truly believe in Christ, then you will either refrain from committing great sins, or will repent of your sins in the prescribed fashion. God has promised and I am convinced will keep it. What have you promised?
***The car breaking down again is analogous to the next mortal sin. That is, the thing that the guarantee is supposed to guarantee against. My point is that in Catholicism a guarantee is claimed (one is “eternally saved”), but it is actually meaningless since “eternally saved” can be wiped out with one mortal sin.***
The guarantee is of God’s grace and the way to salvation. It is not a frogmarch. If free will didn’t matter, why did Jesus spend so much time telling us what to do? If the Holy Spirit indwelling is enough, why do we even have Scripture? All instruction manuals should come with that indwelling, right?
***That would apply to you too, unless you renounce that the Holy Spirit leads you. We do follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but not IN perfection since we still sin. That is no reflection on Holy Spirit. Besides, how can a Comforter comfort without leading?***
We believe that the Holy Spirit leads and leads us only towards perfection. We do not believe that the Holy Spirit frogmarches us. Therefore that is why we say that the Reformed God is the author of sin, and the Catholic belief says that we are the authors of sin.
***To me, the sovereignty of God goes directly to His identity and our understanding of Him. It directly affects my life. If God is sovereign, then I can rest on His promises and seek to obey Him with confidence. If God has delegated away the powers most important concerning humans TO humans, then my eternal destiny is in a constant state of flux. Who knows where I will end up?***
The sovereignty of God is not in question with the Catholics. There is huge difference between sovereignty and robotic control. God has given us free will. How does that lessen His sovereignty?
***It would also mean that God does not love me in the way I thought He did.***
God is not beholden to your wishes.
***I would do serious jail time for at least reckless endangerment and child neglect/abuse if I treated my children the same way God treats His children under the Apostolic view. ***
He has given us free will with a description of the consequences of our actions. No excuses, not even frogmarching will do.
***I’ve been in a number of RC buildings. It’s not rocket science to conclude that the RC edifice DOES PROMOTE idols.***
I didn’t think that you were a rocket scientist.
***Rationalizations to the contrary are transparent and full of hogwash to anyone with a fair-minded enough objective distance from the emotionality of the issue.***
I haven’t observed objectivity in many of your posts especially dealing with the Church and with UFOs.
***We really only need to ask was Jesus who he said he was and were his words accurately written down?***
We need to understand the Way, the Truth and the Life and what that means to our eternal salvation. Repent, be baptized, believe and follow the Way. The Way is narrow. Who can walk it without His help?
For centuries, Catholic Churches were built to give glory to God and to educate His people. The church where we assist at Mass was built in 1876 and is like a beautiful art museum.
My husband decided to be baptized back in '86 after going to church with me. He said when he walked in the church, "God is definitely here!" And that was it for him!
Oh, by the way, please explain why God gave Moses such exact plans for the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus, Ch. 10), which included statues of cherubs to be place on top of it? Or the brazen serpent from Number 21:8, which the people were to look upon in order to be healed. They were NOT idols. DUH.
objectivity in many of . . . posts especially dealing with the Church and with UFOs.
Wonderful to see such improved candor about your posts. And with such humor!
He is further above us than we are above the rotifers. Infinitely further. How is the personal touch carried out?
God shows us that He is personal through His revelation to us. As Kosta noted, a good place to start would be with the Incarnation itself. God created a way for us to know Him that surpassed previous revelations. It was personal and real (of a person, not ethereal). In addition, through scripture God reveals the nature of man TO man. That is also personal because it meets one of our deepest needs, the need to understand who we are.
Of course we cannot comprehend all that He is, but that does not mean that He cannot relate to us on a personal level. If we shut God into a box labeled "unknowable" then we are also free to make up anything we want about who He is and what He is doing. For the Christian that quickly leads to a faith in men instead of a faith in God.
We contend that the Reformation has attempted to elevate man to the point where not only does he invent his own God, he elevates himself to the point where he has his own personal God.
I wasn't sure if it was also the Latin view to deny the personality of God. Now I know. :)
FK: ***However, He DOES speak to me and I certainly speak to Him all the time. Our relationship is deeply personal. I tell Him things I wouldn’t tell anyone else because I trust Him, not because I “have to”. ***
How does the speech work? Is it an actual voice, or is it subconscious?
Just one of many examples is that God speaks to all believers through His word. The "ears to hear" makes that word personal, real, and relevant to me. If I read a technical manual about a subject I didn't know or care about, then it wouldn't be personal to me because it would be irrelevant to me. The Bible doesn't read like that at all.
God also speaks to us through our consciences. Whenever we are led to do something right, that we really do not want to do, that is God speaking to us. And, it's very personal.
How many people saw Christ in the flesh, saw miracles, heard Him teach and still didn’t believe? Just more evidence for the free will of men.
The Bible says otherwise:
Matt 16:15-17 : 15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Nothing about free will here, or having something "proved" to him.
***Wonderful to see such improved candor about your posts. And with such humor! ***
Blessed are those who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
God’s instructions about objects having anything to do with Spirituality were very precise and specific.
Anyone worshipping any of the Ark objects vs Him would have been just as subject to stoning as anyone worshipping any other object.
Yes, I loved the museum quality of the Vatican treasures. However, there was clearly, on the part of SOME pilgrims,
WORSHPFUL awe, reverence, behaviors.
And, the presentations, emphases of a good many of the statues were as idols.
I think a Buddhist would see it that way.
So would a Hindu.
So would many RC folks from Mexico etc.
Just the facts, as I see it.
There is that.
God made us physical with senses that are to be used. Our senses give Him glory when used according to His Will. Beautiful art lifts the spirit, just as ugly "art" can oppress it. Surely, whatever touches our senses and draws us closer to Him is good.
True. Only God can read hearts.
However, behaviors are a big clue.
This is not a logical conclusion, and it contradicts Scripture. Explain, if you will, the parable of the Prodigal Son, in light of your belief.
If images of the saints are evil, then so are mirrors.
***God shows us that He is personal through His revelation to us. As Kosta noted, a good place to start would be with the Incarnation itself. God created a way for us to know Him that surpassed previous revelations. It was personal and real (of a person, not ethereal). ***
And I’d agree with this with the added note that Jesus was real and personal in his Incarnation to those who knew Him. Scripture contains the description of His life on earth; you are living vicariously (as it were) through the eyewitnesses and those who wrote down the stories. It is removed from the immediately personal.
***I wasn’t sure if it was also the Latin view to deny the personality of God.***
God is God. I don’t think that applying a human term such as “personality” would be of any use whatsoever. Jesus, on the other hand, was human and His personality does come through in Scripture.
***Matt 16:15-17 : 15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Nothing about free will here, or having something “proved” to him.***
Revealing something to someone with free will means that they have the ability to react to it. Revelation has nothing whatsoever to do with free will or robotic frogmarching. It is simply that one knows something that one didn’t know before.
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