***As with my example, I would imagine such a thing happens very seldom. However, in the victim’s mind he IS damned, even though the truth is otherwise. This potential is one reason I object to the power claimed.***
I seriously doubt it. If the Holy Spirit would forgive a deserving individual, I think that any doubt or feeling of damnation would be lifted as well.
***I don’t see where you address my point at all. The Bible says (promises) that those who truly believe on Christ are saved. Yet, Catholicism says “maybe”. My analogy compares the promise (scripture) with the reality in Catholicism (something very different).***
If you truly believe in Christ, then you will do your best (with the help of the Holy Spirit and the Church) to act in the manner which we are commanded to act.
If you truly believe in Christ, then you will either refrain from committing great sins, or will repent of your sins in the prescribed fashion. God has promised and I am convinced will keep it. What have you promised?
***The car breaking down again is analogous to the next mortal sin. That is, the thing that the guarantee is supposed to guarantee against. My point is that in Catholicism a guarantee is claimed (one is “eternally saved”), but it is actually meaningless since “eternally saved” can be wiped out with one mortal sin.***
The guarantee is of God’s grace and the way to salvation. It is not a frogmarch. If free will didn’t matter, why did Jesus spend so much time telling us what to do? If the Holy Spirit indwelling is enough, why do we even have Scripture? All instruction manuals should come with that indwelling, right?
***That would apply to you too, unless you renounce that the Holy Spirit leads you. We do follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but not IN perfection since we still sin. That is no reflection on Holy Spirit. Besides, how can a Comforter comfort without leading?***
We believe that the Holy Spirit leads and leads us only towards perfection. We do not believe that the Holy Spirit frogmarches us. Therefore that is why we say that the Reformed God is the author of sin, and the Catholic belief says that we are the authors of sin.
***To me, the sovereignty of God goes directly to His identity and our understanding of Him. It directly affects my life. If God is sovereign, then I can rest on His promises and seek to obey Him with confidence. If God has delegated away the powers most important concerning humans TO humans, then my eternal destiny is in a constant state of flux. Who knows where I will end up?***
The sovereignty of God is not in question with the Catholics. There is huge difference between sovereignty and robotic control. God has given us free will. How does that lessen His sovereignty?
***It would also mean that God does not love me in the way I thought He did.***
God is not beholden to your wishes.
***I would do serious jail time for at least reckless endangerment and child neglect/abuse if I treated my children the same way God treats His children under the Apostolic view. ***
He has given us free will with a description of the consequences of our actions. No excuses, not even frogmarching will do.
My point exactly. We don't doubt that God can and will keep His word. We doubt that men do.
I seriously doubt it. If the Holy Spirit would forgive a deserving individual, I think that any doubt or feeling of damnation would be lifted as well.
No no no, you can't give me that. :) Who is the Catholic layman taught to trust above all others? It is the Church through its Bishops and priests. The layman is taught that the Holy Spirit only discerns to the Magisterium on all matters of faith and morals. The layman is locked out. You seem to be describing some sort of conscientious objector status that would allow the layman to know he is OK even if his priest says he wasn't. I see no evidence of that ever happening. How could it? Are those wacky Catholic nuns who are ordaining themselves as priests seen as conscientious objectors in good standing? No way. There is no room for that. There is only room for what the clergy and hierarchy say, as far as the average layman goes.
So, you can't tell me that a layman is supposed to figure out that for the first time in his life the Holy Spirit is leading him on a matter of faith and morals wholly apart from what his own priest just said to him. That's not what the power structure says.
In all frankness, I've seen too many testimonies from parents of abused children who allowed circumstances to arise that I never would have considered allowing my children in for a minute. The difference? They KNEW they could trust their priests. If the Holy Spirit would have clued in the hypothetical guy above, then certainly He would have done so for those parents. But it doesn't work like that. The average Catholic layman is taught to trust the clergy without question. Proof is that it took more than 30 years to flush out the well known scandal.
If you truly believe in Christ, then you will either refrain from committing great sins, or will repent of your sins in the prescribed fashion. God has promised and I am convinced will keep it. What have you promised?
God promised that I need to confess my sins to one of your priests to have them forgiven? I must have missed that verse. Neither does the Bible ever say that true believers will never sin. Neither does the Bible say that one must repent of his sins in a ping-pong fashion, continuously earning and losing his salvation. All of this is extra-scriptural tradition.
And it's interesting that you asked me what I promised. Frankly, I don't have anything that God would take in exchange for my salvation. Even my best stuff is filthy rags. I just don't have the goods to make up for my sins. Perhaps you have sinned less and will achieve more such that it would be an equitable trade-off in God's mind. I would guess that tradition supports that idea, so I just wish you the best in those efforts. :)
If free will didn’t matter, why did Jesus spend so much time telling us what to do?
Sanctification and perseverance.
If the Holy Spirit indwelling is enough, why do we even have Scripture?
Scripture is in part to show us what to do with the rest of our lives after salvation. Accepting Christ is not an end, it is a beginning indeed! :) God could have snatched us all away at the point of belief if He wanted to, but He obviously had different plans. Those include sanctification and spreading His word to others as His instruments. Because of scripture and Holy Spirit's leading I am a completely different person now than I was at the moment I accepted Christ. (I'm talking aside from the age difference.) This was God's design and I thank Him every day for it! :)
We believe that the Holy Spirit leads and leads us only towards perfection. We do not believe that the Holy Spirit frogmarches us. Therefore that is why we say that the Reformed God is the author of sin, and the Catholic belief says that we are the authors of sin.
Then you do not understand the Reformed God. Man does not have to have ULTIMATE controlling power to be responsible for his own sin. I think the Catholic view is that UNLESS man has the ultimate controlling power over events, then the only one left to blame is God. We certainly don't look at it that way, but I can understand why that view would be needed to solidify the position that man has controlling power over his own destiny and God waits and watches to see what happens.
What seems a little funny is that you're OK on putting responsibility on people for their own sins, but you give God a total pass on His responsibility for His own creation BASED ON SCRIPTURE. That is, you say that God created all men, and then you say that scripture says that God loves all men, and that all men are God's children. Yet, under the Catholic view what did God do? He took a vacation and let man run loose to do whatever he wanted. If some decided to do enough works to be saved then good for them, but God doesn't interfere. Some of God's children will be saved and most will be lost.
Doesn't this show an irresponsible God, one who is unfit as a parent? You will tell me "No". The Catholic view is that God loves His children SO MUCH that He will sit by and let them play in traffic until they get run over because that was their choice. I don't think I'd want that kind of love in my family. :)
The sovereignty of God is not in question with the Catholics. There is huge difference between sovereignty and robotic control. God has given us free will. How does that lessen His sovereignty?
Outstanding question. I shall endeavor to reciprocate with a brilliant answer. :) Within God's all powerful sovereignty He COULD have turned over the decision to men as to who would be saved and who would be lost. He COULD have just left it up to each man's free will. BUT, if He did that, then by definition it would mean that He didn't CARE who individually was in and who was out. IF He actually cared, then in His sovereignty He could do something about it. But for you guys, He just sits back and waits for the results to come in, and then writes down the names as His elect.
THAT is not the God I have a personal relationship with. My God loves ME and cares about ME and gave His life for ME. I'm not some random number to Him that He "hopes" will make good decisions and do enough good deeds. I am His son. And as my Father, He isn't going to let me play in traffic when it means certain death. He protects ME because He loves ME. It's personal. It's family.
FK: ***I would do serious jail time for at least reckless endangerment and child neglect/abuse if I treated my children the same way God treats His children under the Apostolic view. ***
He has given us free will with a description of the consequences of our actions. No excuses, not even frogmarching will do.
Then I suppose that in the Biblical parent-child analogy you see yourselves as fully grown and emancipated adult children, out on your own, and not fully dependent on God (the way a small child is). You are just free to go wherever you want and make whatever decisions you want, and you will eat the consequences. This view is consistent with what I know of the Apostolic Church since it revolves so heavily around how much independence and power is held by men.
I could not disagree with this view more. We are often accused of being the arrogant ones because we do not submit to your men. Yet, you believe that you and they are better compared to adult children of God who are old and wise enough to know what's best for you (AND EVERYONE ELSE! :). Well, I for one am but a very small child who is FULLY dependent on God. I do NOT know what is best for me and so I turn that over to God for His guidance. I am not smart or wise enough to make the right decisions on my own, using my free will. I just hope that you will try to rely on God for at least some things and that your Church will allow you to have a child-like faith. That is the kind of faith that is dependent on God. The grown-up, Apostolic faith is apparently a faith of a different sort.