Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
***Whether Calvin or Pope.. we are still men***
Jesus entrusted His Church to a handpicked group of men. That selection gave them and gives their successors the authority to govern the Church. I am not of that group.
*** Every single member of the Church including the Apostles mocked Jesus at frequent opportunities. ]
NO.. “every single” is another superlative.***
Every single, every individual person who is a member of the Church receives Holy Communion. You claim that receiving Communion mocks Jesus. Therefore you must be saying that all members of the Church mock Jesus.
*** You are quite emotional***
Pray tell.
***Calvinists do the same thing.. as do Jews***
Why bring non Christians into an examination of Christian practices?
***The blind leading the blind?.. I’m not perfect either..***
Since you are apparently rejecting the authority of all men, what is your basis of selecting Scripture, and how do you interpret it?
***Jesus was/is the door to the sheep pen(John ch 10).. Those that hear his voice and follow him (OUT of the sheep pen) are the flock(called OUT ones i.e.”church”).. Those in the sheep pen are pen mates.. i.e. clubbers.. This metaphor is rich and meaningful.. and explains a lot.. ***
The metaphor is erroneous. There is no Biblical mention of various types of sheep - just sheep and goats. The Sermon on the Mount (or on the Plain) says nothing about clubber sheep.
The vast majority of Freemasons are Protestants, beginning in England and France, and continuing that trend over to the US.
I’m beginning to wonder about your sources of information.
“I never realized how much Arainism and Gnosticism subsided in Protestant beliefs. This was an eye-opener into what heresy really means.”
Quite frankly, I never realized how much the deism of Plato and Heraclitus has influenced Eastern Orthodoxy. The belief that God does not interfere with human life (extreme freewill)and the laws of the universe (natural theology, the rejection/reinterpretation of supernatural events, prophecy, miracles, indwelling/leading of the Holy Spirit) really is “an eye-opener into what heresy really means”.
If man was given complete freewill to choose, and God only creates the good, who created evil? If man was given the capacity to choose evil, then there must have been evil to choose. If you say God in His foresight saw the evil then it must have preceded man, so who created it?
Even to say that God is not bound by time so He sees all things immediately, man still can’t create ab initio, only copy, since he is created.
blue-duncan: "Then extend the same courtesy to those who affirm their church pedigree with the same kind of interpretive history."
The claim of the Catholic/Orthodox Church that the church always and everywhere believed thus and so fails due to the Church intentionally eliminating manuscripts and beliefs hated by those in power.
Around circa 490 at the beginning of the Dark Ages, Gelasius I sought to consolidate power under Rome, assert papal supremacy and enliven a practice dating back to at least St. Philastrius circa 380 of cataloguing heresies, dogging and condemning heretics and destroying documents, even ancient manuscripts containing things they hated even if they were loved by the earliest Christians.
We can clearly see control being asserted (and manuscripts being destroyed) even earlier under the Papacy of Damasus I (circa 366) in this document, The “Decretum Gelasianum de Libris Recipiendis et non Recipiendis”:
the works of Tertullian...
These and those similar ones, which Simon Magus, Nicolaus, Cerinthus, Marcion, Basilides, Ebion, Paul of Samosata, Photinus and Bonosus, who suffered from similar error, also Montanus with his obscene followers, Apollinaris, Valentinus the Manichaean, Faustus the African, Sabellius, Arius, Macedonius, Eunomius, Novatus, Sabbatius, Calistus, Donatus, Eustasius, Jovianus, Pelagius, Julian of Eclanum, Caelestius, Maximian, Priscillian from Spain, Nestorius of Constantinople, Maximus the Cynic, Lampetius, Dioscorus, Eutyches, Peter and the other Peter, of whom one disgraced Alexandria and the other Antioch, Acacius of Constantinople with his associates, and what also all disciples of heresy and of the heretics and schismatics, whose names we have scarcely preserved, have taught or compiled, we acknowledge is to be not merely rejected but eliminated from the whole Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church and with their authors and the followers of its authors to be damned in the inextricable shackles of anathema forever.
Were it not for Ethiopia where it was rediscovered in 1775, Enoch would have been lost until it was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the copies there being carbon dated to about 200 b.c. IOW, the Book of Enoch is much older even than that, i.e. ancient by any measure.
Now the Church includes it in its collected writings - but for more than a 1,000 years it was "eliminated" because the Church hated it back in 380!
Who knows what else the Church "eliminated?"
In other words, because of their actions - for which we have strong archeological evidence - the claim of "always and everywhere believed" cannot be authenticated. Therefore, I strongly agree with you, blue-duncan, that alternative interpretations of church history should be treated with courtesy.
“I strongly agree with you, blue-duncan,”
Well, here it is almost 12:00P.M. and you are the first. I don’t know whether to call it a day and take this win or look at this as the beginning of a roll and take my chances this afternoon. So many decisions!!
Good evidence.
The notion that the Greek and/or Romanist churches are transcendent and without change or error is, of course, laughable. No doubt we will see much “kicking against the goad”.
No doubt, Irish. That's why I defer to the Church and its unbroken collective knowledge and wisdom, which is much greater than mine.
As for Rom 5:12, the Greek text, verbatim, reads as follows:
Therefore as through one man sin into the world entered and through sin death so-also (kai outws) to all men death came because/inasmuch (ef' hw) all sinned.
The East reads this as: ...as through one man sin entered into the world and through sin death, so also death came to all men because all have sinned
No inherited sin here. But, if you check your versions, you will see a different conntation.
The West, beginning with St. Augustine, began to teach that we are born guilty of Adam's sin and undeserving of grace.
The East taught forever that we are born spiritually ill or wounded because of Adam's transgression, even addicted to sin, if you want, but not guilty of it. A child born to an alcoholic mother will be addicted to alcohol at no fault his own, and therefore not guilty of his mother's sin.
***To you Christ is merely a “mediator.” I tell you, I never realized how much Arainism and Gnosticism subsided in Protestant beliefs. This was an eye-opener into what heresy really means.***
I lived for six years in a small county in Indiana where we had only one Catholic Church and were surrounded by literally hundreds and hundreds of different churches. The phone book was an interesting read.
The belief systems are individually generated, normally copied from the surroundings and tailored to the individual. The creation of God in man’s image, as it were.
Church hopping was frequent; it was like people shopping in a large mall, going into the different stores.
But it all comes down to one thing - believing the Church, or making the church an individual entity that believes in its own doctrine.
***I dont know what you mean by this.. maybe out of context.. Jesus spoke in metaphor mode to make scripture seem foolish to the “goats”.. on purpose..***
You implied that St. Paul was foolish to teach that works are important. Which goats are you referring to?
***UN-Orthodox?... true..***
I have not seen the term Christian applied to some of them.
***Sometimes I can’t... sometimes I can.. Some of Jesus metaphors are still a mystery to me.***
Then do you contend that you do not possess the fullness of the Gospels (yet)? If so, what does that entail?
Those who believe Joseph Smith need to understand what that means. Ditto for those who believe Mohammed. Ditto, L. Ron Hubbard. Ditto, David Koresh. Ditto, Jim Jones. Ditto, Applewhite. And so on.
And ditto for those who believe the dogma and doctrine and liturgy and sacraments of the physical Catholic/Orthodox Church - or LDS or whatever - as it has been handed down over the years.
But that is not the Way God has chosen for me.
I believe God. I love Him and trust Him. And He authenticates His own words to me, personally.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. - Isaiah 55:10-11
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. - John 16:13
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) – John 7:38-39
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. – I Corinthians 12:13
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
***The claim of the Catholic/Orthodox Church that the church always and everywhere believed thus and so fails due to the Church intentionally eliminating manuscripts and beliefs hated by those in power.***
Heresy almost broke the early Church many times. Heretical beliefs were strongly dealt with both because they would divide the Church into factions, much as the Reformation did to the Protestants, but even more so because they were wrong and anti Christian.
***A well established example of the elimination of documents and beliefs is the Book of Enoch which was rejected by the powers that were in the Church (Philastrius, circa 380) even though the early Christians loved it and relied on it - as is evident by its being quoted in Jude and terms and phrases in Enoch being used in many other places throughout the New Testament.
Were it not for Ethiopia where it was rediscovered in 1775, Enoch would have been lost until it was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the copies there being carbon dated to about 200 b.c. IOW, the Book of Enoch is much older even than that, i.e. ancient by any measure.
Now the Church includes it in its collected writings - but for more than a 1,000 years it was “eliminated” because the Church hated it back in 380!***
Which Church authority hated it and banned it at what time?
***alternative interpretations of church history should be treated with courtesy. ***
How would you approach somebody that strongly believed that the world was flat and that the sun moved around the earth?
Very courteous of you. :)
***I believe God. I love Him and trust Him. And He authenticates His own words to me, personally.***
How?
***And ditto for those who believe the dogma and doctrine and liturgy and sacraments of the physical Catholic/Orthodox Church***
Do you believe in the Scripture that the Catholic Church has given to you? If so, why?
***I believe God. I love Him and trust Him***
As do all true Christians.
***Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: ***
Guide is the key word here. The Spirit leads and whomsoever will, will follow. How do you know, outside of the Church, that the voices are of God?
***To God be the glory, not man, never man. ***
There are many, and they are legion in the tv ministry ranks, who say words to this effect but who really mean that they exult in their false piety, and they are inordinately proud of their false humility.
The phrase is good and true; many that use it are not.
You are wrong.. The word mentioned is sheep pens/corrals/holding cells.. The metaphor in (John ch10) is of sheep pens of which the door to the pens=>>(Jesus) calls them out.. (of the pens).. What is not mentioned is the goat pens.. I believe goat pens are implied.. i.e. atheism, Buddhism, Islam, Hindus etc.. The sheep follow his(the Shepard's) voice.. making the metaphor intact..
I didn;t mention the goat pens but I think they are implied since there ARE goat pens(churchs/temples/synagogues/meeting places.. i.e. religions).. The subject though is SHEEP pens.. which are mentioned.. The sheep pens are NOT treated as legitimate but as aberrations to following the Shepard voice....
Im not freemason or protestant..
What does fullness mean in that/this context..
***Im not freemason or protestant..***
If you claim to be Christian and are not of the Catholic faith, then you are non-Catholic Christian - Protestant - unless your roots trace back to before the Reformation.
For example, the roots of the Church of Christ are Methodist, Baptist and a touch of Presbyterian. Therefore the Church of Christ is labelled Protestant.
Besides, I’m more interested in what people are than what they are not.
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