[MarkBsnr]

***The claim of the Catholic/Orthodox Church that the church always and everywhere believed thus and so fails due to the Church intentionally eliminating manuscripts and beliefs hated by those in power.***

Heresy almost broke the early Church many times. Heretical beliefs were strongly dealt with both because they would divide the Church into factions, much as the Reformation did to the Protestants, but even more so because they were wrong and anti Christian.

***A well established example of the elimination of documents and beliefs is the Book of Enoch which was rejected by the powers that were in the Church (Philastrius, circa 380) even though the early Christians loved it and relied on it - as is evident by its being quoted in Jude and terms and phrases in Enoch being used in many other places throughout the New Testament.
Were it not for Ethiopia where it was rediscovered in 1775, Enoch would have been lost until it was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the copies there being carbon dated to about 200 b.c. IOW, the Book of Enoch is much older even than that, i.e. ancient by any measure.

Now the Church includes it in its collected writings - but for more than a 1,000 years it was “eliminated” because the Church hated it back in 380!***

Which Church authority hated it and banned it at what time?

***alternative interpretations of church history should be treated with courtesy. ***

How would you approach somebody that strongly believed that the world was flat and that the sun moved around the earth?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your replies!

Heresy almost broke the early Church many times. Heretical beliefs were strongly dealt with both because they would divide the Church into factions, much as the Reformation did to the Protestants, but even more so because they were wrong and anti Christian.

The point is how the "powers that be" dealt with what they considered at the time to be heresy. Which is to say, by "book burning" they attacked their own credibility and authority.

Which Church authority hated it and banned it at what time?

Philastrius, circa 380 A.D. Liber de Haeresibus

How would you approach somebody that strongly believed that the world was flat and that the sun moved around the earth?

With loving kindness of course. Also, I avoid arguing bizarre theological beliefs and instead mostly proclaim the words of God. That is why my own words are spare on my replies here. If God has given someone "ears to hear" he will hear His words, and that is what matters.

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. - 2 Timothy 2:23

You continued:

me: ***I believe God. I love Him and trust Him. And He authenticates His own words to me, personally.***

you: How?

By bringing His words alive within. His words are not merely language symbols – whether written or spoken. The people Christ is addressing below were physically hearing Him but they could not Spiritually hear Him:

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

You continued:

Do you believe in the Scripture that the Catholic Church has given to you? If so, why?

I believe God. God the Father has revealed Himself in four ways: (1) through the Person of Jesus Christ His only begotten son, (2) through the indwelling Holy Spirit, (3) through Scripture and (4) through Creation both Spiritual and Physical.

The words of God come from God, not man. It doesn't matter who He chooses to convey them or make a record of them - whether Moses, David, prophets, councils of Jews or Christians or a few goatherders in Qumran.

God's words are not constrained by the worthiness or position of mortals. Even Nebuchadnezzar (Dan 4:37) and Caiphas (John 11:49-52) conveyed words of God. It is a deep Spiritual error in a man to be proud that God has used him to sing His praises.

And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, [saying, It is] the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. But the word of God grew and multiplied. - Acts 12:21-24

Again, the words of God are spirit and life. They are not merely language symbols captured by sound or pressure waves or recorded on papyrus, paper or electronic media. Knowing Scriptures is not enough – one must also know the power of God, Jesus Christ to receive them.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. - John 12:48

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. – Matthew 22:29

You continued:

Guide is the key word here. The Spirit leads and whomsoever will, will follow. How do you know, outside of the Church, that the voices are of God?

I’ve known Jesus Christ personally for a half century. He is not a hypothesis. He lives. Recognizing Him is easy for me now.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

Nevertheless, God has given us four tests to try the spirits: (1) the doctrine of whom Christ is, (2) the Berean test, (3) Spiritual discernment and (4) the fruits of the Spirit. Following are these tests from Scripture plus my personal recommendations if anyone is interested:

Doctrine of whom Christ is

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. - 1 John 4:1-3

If the message someone is trying to peddle is that Jesus Christ was a mortal, that His life began when He was conceived in Mary’s womb or when He was physically born – it is the spirit of anti-Christ. Reject it.

The Berean test

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. - Acts 17:11

When someone brings spiritual advice, quickly and as thoroughly as possible - compare the message with the Scriptures. If the Scriptures do not agree, reject the message. If the Scriptures are silent on the message, take it as merely the harmless thoughts of a mortal.

Spiritual discernment

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. - I Corinthians 2:6-16

Spiritual discernment is a gift of God. Without that gift, it is impossible to hear or understand the language of the Spirit. The words of God are spirit and life, they are not simply language symbols like written or spoken text. The natural man cannot hear Christ.

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

Those who have “ears to hear” are drawn to Christ, the living Word of God. The deceiver cannot fool us.

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:3-5

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one. – John 10:26-30

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. – James 4:7

If the Spirit Who dwells within you grates against the message in your spirit, reject it. If He draws you to the message, listen. If neither, then receive the message as merely the harmless thoughts of another man.

Fruits of the Spirit

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits.

Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. - Matthew 7:15-20

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

When someone seeks to advise us on Spiritual matters, we should look at the fruits of the speaker’s life. Judge the fruits, not the man.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. – Matthew 7:1-2

Without Christ we can produce no Spiritual fruit at all.

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:5

But if a person abides in Christ and He in him, his life will be producing all of the fruits of Spirit which are, paraphrased: love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, loyalty and self-control.

We are wise to also apply the fruit test to ourselves, regularly - kind of like taking our spiritual "vitals."

For instance, when a Christian is anxious then something is spiritually amiss, something is obstructing the Spirit of Christ in him. On the other hand, when he is full of peace, there is no cause for alarm - at least on that point.

Beware the hirelings, thieves and robbers. (John 10:1-15)

To God be the glory!