Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Thanks. So true.
Want to copy that and put in a handy file. There are lots of pigmies hereon bowing at the altar of peer review and other rituals and accoutraments of the idolatry of Scientism. . . . not that truth easily scratches any of their surfaces . . .
However . . . truth has a niggling way of at least leaving a bit more uncomfortable those with some brain left.
. . . especially with Holy Spirit prodding, niggling at the fossilized and calcified ones. LOL.
Such human frailties we all fall prey to so easily. May the Living Word and His Spirit ever renew our focus, knowledge and wisdom of Him.
So then, God planted the seed of disobedience in man’s mind by telling him he had a choice since up to that time man had no experience with disobedience. The only previous command of God was positive, “be fruitful and replenish”. It was not “conditional” and there was no adverse consequence attached to it.
What is intersting about Gen. 2:17, “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” is that just by introducing the concept of disobedience, God has already instructed man in the concept of good and evil, the “eating” was just the test.
God also introduces the concept of death into a pristine situation. There has been no death or dieing when this instruction is given so man has no categories to understand it or its significance. God telling man about death based on foreknowledge in this situation would be meaningless to man unless he had been previously taught its meaning.
We are not discussing theology. We are discussing politics. For both of us our faith is the guiding force in our lives, but we have been discussing foreign policy.
The Serbs have gotten a bad deal for several reasons. Milosevic was an ignorant thug who had no concept of presenting his side in the media and how to elicit sympathy from the American people. The Serbs and EO in this country did a terrible job of seeing that the American people learn that the issue was more complex than some muslims being persecuted.
The American people are at heart a good decent people, so yes if the EOC and Serbs had done a better job of presenting their side of the story things may have gone differently. A good example would be the civil rights movement. When they were able to show how wrong things were the American people came to their side and change happened.
I do understand your frustration. I work with a lot of contractors from Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia and Bosnia and we do discuss these issues.
“We are not discussing theology.”
I know, WF, I know! :)
K:I know, WF, I know! :)
I only mention that because you keep using the phrase the Protestants and America Govt.. As though there was some "conspiracy" among Protestants to persecute the EOC.
“As though there was some “conspiracy” among Protestants to persecute the EOC.”
Well, obviously a conspiracy among all Protestants would be pretty hard to put together and even harder to keep together. That said, WF, the fact is that the Bush Administration has had its greatest, most unquestioning support from Protestants, evangelicals if you will. We read the attacks of various forms of Protestantism on Orthodox theology regularly on sites like FR. We read daily of the support the Bush Administration has for Mohammedan forces which are actively destroying Orthodox communities. We hear of the “missionary” activities of Protestant groups going out to convert the “idolators” in Orthodox lands. Frankly, WF, it looks to me like a program designed to at a minimum stand by while American foreign policy as practiced by Bush and Rice, is complicit in the killing of Orthodox Christians. At worst, it is active support of the destruction of Orthodoxy.
I’ll believe otherwise when I begin reading sermons of your major preachers condemning Bush and the neo-cons.
Born Again Christians are more conservative than EO or RC's so that's not really a big surprise.
We read the attacks of various forms of Protestantism on Orthodox theology regularly on sites like FR.
Because it is wrong!
We defend our beliefs all the time from EO and RC posters. I don't believe many of us see these as attacks because it presents the opportunity to show how wrong the EOC and RCC are. If you view these threads as attacks maybe it's because there is truth in what is being said and it conflicts with what your church claims.
We read daily of the support the Bush Administration has for Mohammedan forces which are actively destroying Orthodox communities.
This is just silly.
You are so focused on the parochial interests of your church you would have the USA lose the WOT so it can save some churches somewhere else.
We hear of the “missionary” activities of Protestant groups going out to convert the “idolators” in Orthodox lands.
God Bless them!
The majority of my tithing is able to be designated to support missionaries there, in Asia, India and the middle east. You should welcome these people with open arms. If your not idolators you should be able to show them and celebrate being brothers in Christ. These missionaries are among the finest people you will ever know. They are prepared to risk it all just to preach THE GOSPEL.
Frankly, WF, it looks to me like a program designed to at a minimum stand by while American foreign policy as practiced by Bush and Rice, is complicit in the killing of Orthodox Christians.
I'm sorry you don't see the end game. Let me try and explain it again.
The toughest nut to crack in the WOT is Iran. Afghanistan was the easiest and then Iraq because of the prior war and the sanctions. The nation that is the strongest supporter of terrorism is Iran. If they can be overthrown support for the muhajaheen that infect Bosnia and Kosovo disappears.
If Iran is the ultimate target how do you bring it down. If you go in militarily there is a big risk of exciting nationalist pride and all those who were sympathetic to seeing change are lost. If you can establish representative govts. on Iran's borders and isolate Iran economically in time the force for change should be overwhelming internally.
However, if you turn your attention to Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia, Albania and Romania you are now focusing on areas that receive terrorists, but not cutting off the supply. If terrorism is going to be stopped you have to eliminate the areas that produce the terrorists. In the process you have to align yourself with "allies" that are pretty bad themselves. It is not pretty but it is the world we live in.
The American people are as good as bread, but they are sadly misinformed. The Serbs had formidable enemies in American Administration since Nixon, and in media since the late 1980's. A lot of the disinformation fed to the public by American media came from British and other sources we generally trust.
The Albanian lobby has also paid considerable amounts of money to the late Congressman Tom Lantos (a Hungarian Jew and a Holocaust survivor who put himself in the service of Albanian Muslims while their religious counterparts in Palestine target the Jewish state!), and have created "close working relationships" with Sen. Biden, Sen. McCain, Sen. Dole, and other prominent Congressmen.
The Albanian lobby has been operating off of rampant drug trafficking and human prostitution business in Albania and Kosovo, with huge sums of money available for such endeavor.
Miloshevich's government has been subjected to unprecedented economic embargo in the 1990's. This ruined Serbia economically and forced Serbian authorities to accept "services" offered by organized and paramilitary crime groups and warlords which provided essential supplies (such as oil and medicines) despite the embargo, but for a heavy price.
Not only did this cost an arm and a leg, but it brought organized crime into the highest circles of Serbia's government. Bankrupt and unable to compete with Albanian mafia in terms of money and sympathy, and already made into a pariah state, Serbia's PR efforts were met with unwillingness of the western media and governments to consider a more balanced view.
The orchestrated propaganda coming from Bosnia led to NATO supported Croatian counter-offensive, and an Iranian-suported re-arming of Bosnian Muslims right under NATO's own watchful eyes. Similarly, the incidents that finally sparked the Kosovo war were a succession of well planned events that were designed to provide the "evidence" that "justified" Madeline Albright to give Serbia the (illegal) ultimatum, which was written in such a way that Serbia could not accept.
There were many individuals and organizations from America and Western Europe who were trying to show the other side of the coin, but they were ignored. It has nothing to do how good the American people are. It has everything to do what was told to the American people and who told them.
They were fed lies with the desired effects. Whether it was a lie launched by the then Bosnia's Muslim "Foreign Minister" Haris Silajdzic, that 200,000 Muslims were killed by Serbs between 1990 and 1993 (a figure repeated as "fact' by Bill Clinton and all American media, even years after it has been shown to be a lie)*, or whether it was Clinton's Foreign Secretary Bill Cohen's assertion that he "feared" 100,000** Albanians were killed in Kosovo by Miloshevich's troops (fear, which was taken as 'fact' and without verification repeated relentlessly in our media as such), makes no difference.
*Western documentation after the war and intelligence estimates during the war, which were not published at that time, reduced the figure to 25,000 to maximum 60,000 on all three sides, i.e. Muslims, Serbs and Muslims during the five, not three years of the civil war.
**Only about 3,000 victims have been found in Kosovo after the war, and that includes Serbs and Albanians. So it is clear that the highest American officials told untruth to the public, just as the case for Iraq war was a case of orchestrated untruths by the highest government officials for a desired effect.
Discovering that all these lies were lies after the damage has been done is irrelevant. It's like finding out an innocent man was framed, tried, convicted, sentenced to death and executed only for the public to be told several years later it was, ooops a mistake! The victim is dead and buried and whoever wanted to see him dead succeeded and no amount of regret will brig the victim back to life.
When a country like ours takes on initiatives as the world's leading superpower, it is that much more responsible to make sure such actions are based on sound and balanced information and judgment, not based on created outrage, because the damage it can create by wanton use of its force is immeasurably greater than that of any other country, and such fundamental mistakes as being susceptible to lying and cheating emigré groups' disinformation (like the Albanians, Croatians, and Iraqi groups a la Chalabi's gang) makes us look naive, gullible and inept; and the damage we do to our image in particular, and to the democracy in general is equally immeasurable and damaging to us.
So, as usual, things are never black and white. It is very tempting to say the stupid Serbs just didn't use their PR. It's another thing to actually be educated, to read and research the media and documents involved, and to put the puzzle together.
When Kolokotronis says that the West is out to destroy Orthodox Christianity using Muslim jihadists, he is not talking of the good-hearted American people, but of some very anti-Orthodox and anti-Christian elements in our Government, media, and in Hollywood.
Most Americans don't have the time, the knowledge or the interest to research foreign policy issues that don't really affect their pocketbook and daily lives. Because we firmly believe in democracy, we also believe that a democratic system could not have lying and deceiving politicians (this is evident but I have no clue where this comes from, given that Americans generally do not trust politicians, yet allow themselves to be led and fed). I owuld say that part of the problem is in the law that no longer requires media to present both sides of the issue.
But corrupt politicians do not want educated voters just as corrupt businesses don't want educated customers. In our idealistic love for democracy and capitalism we often forget that there are manipulators and liars at work precisely because freedom provides for sin, and that free press is also free to lie.
WMF: God Bless them!
Why are they "evangelizing" Russian Christians?
nation that is the strongest supporter of terrorism is Iran. If they can be overthrown support for the muhajaheen that infect Bosnia and Kosovo disappears.
Wrong. The biggest supporters of Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo's Muslims are the US. Without US support, neither would exist at this time.
“Wrong. The biggest supporters of Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo’s Muslims are the US. Without US support, neither would exist at this time.”
Kosta is right, WF. Those supporters aren’t you particularly, but they are the politicians you as a Republican/conservative support. But in all honesty, you could as well be a Democrat because their well paid for loyalty to those Balkan Mohammedan terrorists is only marginally less than that of the Republican politicians.
WF, absolutely none of this that Kosta and I and other Orthodox here on FR have been saying has been a secret.
I am curious about one of your remarks, namely that alliances with the drug running, sex slaving Orthodox killing KLA terrorists is somehow necessary to the successful prosecution of the WOT. Did someone actually say that to you? Do you really think that’s true?
Thank you Dr. E.! That is fascinating. It looks like Jefferson really did do some "heavy lifting". :)
Not everyone is given those types of things. If you were to look through scripture, you’ll find that given the 2,000 years of the Old Testament, there really weren’t very many miracles. God wants His people to walk by faith-not sight. As Paul and Barnabas found out when they healed the man in Athens, much to their regret, miracles can have unfortunate consequences. People thought they were gods and when they tried to explain who it was who really created the miracle they were stoned.
Miracles are used for various purposes for enacting God's will. But as has been repeatedly shown in scripture, miracles don't change the heart. God has to do that. Pharaoh saw all sorts of miracles. God appeared to Abimelech in a dream. The Philistines recongized the miracles of God when they stoled the ark. The unbelieving Israelites ate the food of angels for 40 years. None of these miracles did them any good. God could pop His hand out of the thin air and start writing on the wall and all people will do is look at it and say, “Whew!! There's something you don't see everyday, Myrtle.” People will not see a miracle even if the handwriting is on the wall.
Signs do happen and they happen through believers; they just don’t happen to everyone nor are they as frequent as we think they should be. But, today we have people like Benny Hinn or the Church who think miracles should pop up every two or three days and then jump up and down saying, “See, see”. They simply have a misunderstanding of the purpose of miracles.
We don't dictate to God that we want a miracle. In my thinking that is blasphemous. God dispenses His gifts as He sees fit and is necessary. He went for four hundred years and never performed a single miracle that we know of. What makes us think He should do something every few months?
Amen. Either/or. Chance or God. One or the other 100%.
I'm way behind on this thread, but your excellent post via Van Til caught my eye.
The most amazing thing I've learned about God's sovereignty in all things is that this awareness has grown exponentially in my mind. And this through no intention of my own. It just has taken over my brain more and more each day. Where once I saw God occasionally, now I see Him everywhere.
When I first began to think there might be some things God controlled, I still held to the notion there were many things God either chose not to or was incapable of controlling. But this equivocation ultimately left much of life to "chance" and to the vagaries of the created world.
Gradually I saw this proposition denied God entirely. If there is a God, then nothing is outside His determining influence, and chance does not exist. At the moment of creation, God knew everything that would ever occur and His thoughts could not include "chance" by definition. What could possibly surprise God?
Instead God's thoughts are absolute in their substance and purpose. What God "thought" is what has become. And nothing came before God's creative foreknowledge such as men's good or bad actions, or else existence would not be of God first, but of men first and then God reacting to men and their actions.
In some peculiar melding of time and space, we are living out the thoughts and purpose of God. That's just how it is. And Christians should rejoice in this knowledge. We have been named as members of His family from before the foundation of the world for no other reason than that's just how God wants it to be.
But the God of Scripture cannot live in the realm of Chance.
Amen. So some of us say "prove to me what's in the dark closet and I'll believe it." And some of us are happy with and grateful for the God-given, Scriptural understanding that God created the closet, the darkness, and the light outside the closet by which we see the cat when God opens the door.
What has your Orthodox church "shown you" about Christ's resurrection that you believe?
As others have said, that is a brilliant observation.
Is "brilliant" too strong a word here?
8~)
Dear Harley,
The typical mistake too many people seem to make regarding miracles is putting too much emphasis on physical miracles
The Late Father John Hardon explains this better than I can...
“”In general a miracle is any effect perceptible by the senses, produced by God which surpasses the powers of nature. Immediately we must explain that there are three levels of natural laws that God can surpass and thus perform a miracle. There are the physical laws of visible nature. Thus the sudden healing of a fatal disease surpasses needless to say the powers of human physical nature. Indeed surpasses the powers of all physical nature. Walking on water is naturally impossible. The raising of a dead human being back to life exceeds all created power, and no one but God with His omnipotence can raise a dead person back to life. And just for the record, physical miracles are the lowest level of miraculous phenomena.
On a higher level than physical miracles is the performance of what the Church calls moral miracles. A moral miracle exceeds the powers of the human will in the practice of superhuman moral virtue. For which the Church has coined the term “heroic moral virtue”. This in fact is one of the norms used by the Church in her assessment of authentic sanctity. The lives of saints like Francis of Assisi and Thomas More. The deaths of martyrs like St. Agnes and Maria Goretti. These are witnesses to the miraculous power that Christ has given to His most beloved followers over the centuries. In other words, every canonized saint is a moral miracle. And today’s world needs (what a safe statement) men and women and even children who are practicing what the Church calls heroic virtue.
Finally, still on the different levels of miraculous phenomena there are intellectual miracles in which God enlightens the human mind beyond all natural capacity for acquiring knowledge. The most obvious witnesses to this highest level in the time of Christ were (Shall I say it?) the dense thick-headed Apostles. God had to enlighten them, and this is part of our faith - miraculously. However, over the centuries Christ has continued performing these miracles of the intellect. In a St. Augustine of Hippo, and in a St. Therese of Avila, or in a Catherine of Siena. These testify to the power of Christ, the Incarnate Truth, can produce among human beings who believe that He is indeed the Living God in human form.””
Its certainly been awhile since I posted you, I hope all is well with you and your family!
Hi, Harley. Ping to 2,014 and 2,015.
When I first began to think there might be some things God controlled, I still held to the notion there were many things God either chose not to or was incapable of controlling.
Actually, and surprising, I thought that all Christians truly believed that God controls all things. I always did. However, I just didn't think this concept through; that God controls ALL things. It was like a big "DUH" to me, but I'm a bit slow on the uptake.
Yes everything is find. My Internet connection has been reduced and I have been extremely busy the rest of the time. My son won first place in his high school science fair and is moving on to the regionals. Talk about miracles!!!! My wife and I told him to do some simple little thing but we insisted he do it well. All we were interested is that he get an "A" for his project. You could have knocked us over with a feather when they called his name out as a first place winner. (about 10 first place winners out of 550)
Well enough yaking... (the world doesn't need more yaks)
I would certainly agree with your first (transcending natural laws) and third (enlightening the human mind) examples. I would have a problem with "moral" miracles. I'm not quite sure what that would be. Thomas More refusal to accept King Henry's leadership as the head of the Church of England, doesn't speak to me as a "moral" miracle but rather someone who simply believes, rightly or wrongly, in his Church. You could say the same thing about Wycliff or Jan Hus but I doubt if you'll find the Church crediting Wycliff or Hus as a "moral" miracle.
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