Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights and especially, thank you for those beautiful Scriptures!

[kosta50]

Did the Vatican State know what was going on and if so what did they do to stop it?

I don't know, in all honesty. It also depends what they could do to stop it. The mafia ma have devout catholics among the members, but that doesn't mean they will follow what the Church tells them.

As far as I know there has not be a clear-cut damning evidence that either the Vatican knew or didn't try to stop it. Or even if it tried that it could have stopped it.

Again, the so-called Independent State of Croatia (NDH) was a secular Fascist state created after the Nazi occupation of Yugoslavia and very unlikly to tailor its policies according to Vatican's wishes unless they were in harmony with those of Hitler's Germany (which was not well disposed towards the Catholic Church as too "pacifist" and "unpatriotic").

The damning evidence agaist the Catholic Church's behavior during this time involves forced "conversion" of Orthodox Serbs into the (Roman) Catholic faith. But that was the Church's policy ever since Austrian Empress Maria Theresa instituted aggressive Uniate conversions in the 18th century.

Accoridng to modern international standards,,such an act would be considered genocide, by definition, but in those days it was not considered a crime, but a right.

The "evidence" against the Vatican comes from documents and photographs showing Croatian Fascist officials (Ustashe) with leading Catholic clergy. That a weak case in my opinion.

The other one was the fact that some former priests (pictured below) chose to join the Ustasha concentration camp guards and participate in atrocities against the Serbs, Jews and Gypsies..

But all this falls short of any overwhelming evidence that the Vatican, as a matter of official policy, supported either the Fascist regime or approved of its atorcities, although there is no lack of many conspiracy theories.

Is this another example of what we discussed earlier where organizations become "organisms of sorts" and protection of the organization becomes more important than the mission

I would say it is more a reflection of the self-righteous, self-serving, fallen human nature.

[kosta50]

Yet no one has been able to produce a better more equitable economic system

Depends what you mean by equitable.

Communism, tried and failed miserably. In that system they discovered that they could grow all the wheat they needed on their big collectives, but when it came time to get it to the market most rotted in the fields

First I never suggested anything even remotely close to communist or fascist economy. It was imputed by others, but if you care to examine my posts you will not find me endorsing either.

Communism failed for many reasons, most of them self-induced. It became a victim of its own ideology and mindset. In order to keep full employment so they can brag about it, communist regimes would hire more than one person for one job. Many of these full-time, full-benefits jobs were awarded to people either through 'connections' or simply bribes. Since the state was not accountable to anyone, there was no one to pass corrective legislation and the system, naturally, had no inclination to police itself.

But it is false to assume that just because something is not competitive or free it cannot work, be productive or even excellent. Our Armed forces are certainly an example that government business does work and does give excellent results. The difference is that the military is accountable to elected civilian authorities. So, it is really the democracy that is behind the success, not necessarily the type of economic system employed.

For instance, the military health system is organized around civilian HMO structure. Military exchanges and commissaries work for profit but do not compete.

In many ways, the military health system is eons ahead of the civilian counterparts as for example physician order entry is computerized while in most major and smaller civilian hospitals doctors' orders are still hand written, then faxed, then transcribed into the computer system by someone other than the physician (all of which slows things down, does not flad potential conflicts, and cause transcriptional error in the process).

Europe is an example of this. It is based on free-market eocnomy but not without limits set by a democratic state and in keeping with such immutable limits as national security, natiomnal interest, and moral and ethical standards of the society. Many things in Europe are "socialist." European countries do not fit the American model and they are neither communist nor fascist.

The military examples, and European examples shows that not being 'capitalist' leaves only fascist or communist (non)choices. But whatever system is used, accountability and ethics must apply.

Capitalism, left uncontrolled historically has produced terrible results but with antitrust controls and safety controls for workers has produced the most effective and productive means of producing goods and services of any economic system. It also offers the greatest opportunity for an individual to achieve great success in life.

I don't think I ever disagreed with that. In fact your first part of this quote is exactly what I was saying, except that it wasn't only about workers' safety, but big capital ethics as well (such as child labor laws).

This is necessary precisely because no system, not even capitalism, will police itself.

It also offers the greatest opportunity for an individual to achieve great success in life

If properly regulated.

But what i said was read out of context and subjected to knee-jerk reactions. This whole discussion started with my observation that the root cause of illegal immigration is to be found in the willingness of some American businesses to illegally hire illegal alien, and for government, on all levels, willing to ignore them rather than penalizing them according to existing laws (which call for extremely steep fines for hiring illegal aliens).

In other words, such willingness created a demand, and the illegal immigration is simply the supply that some asked for.

My other contention was that this decision to hire illegal aliens is based on greed (profit motive) because it is cheaper to hire illegal aliens than Americans. If i need someone to wash my dishes in my restaurant, I can probably get two, even three illegals, for the hourly rate of one American worker (not to talk about paying his benefits).

Just because soemthing is more profitable doesn't mean it is right, especially if it violates national security.

My third contention was that a portion of the 13 million estimated illegal aliens who snuck into the country, represent potentially lethal fith column of enemy combatants on our soil

Finally, I observed that the governments on all levels do not enforce aniti-immigration laws.

I find nothing in any of what I wrote that reject capitalism in principle, nor did I advocate any other system. But even I did it is not a crimes, is it?

[kosta50]

"Blame America First" does not play on this forum - or among conservatives at large - or among Republicans

This was about unethical businesses doing unethical (illegal) things for greater (but illegal) profits. Profits obtained illegally are illgeal.

This was not an endorsement of any other system, but a condemnation of such unethical practices which, in addition to being unethical, also potentially threaten our national security.

It was also criticism of all levels of the government for not enforcing existing anti-illegal immigration laws.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "The God of the Holy Bible is not a God who scrambles to pick up the pieces when something He tries doesn't work out."

The Bible seems to suggest otherwise, FK. God repented having made man in Genesis 6:6 and in Hebrew 8:6 the scripture plainly reveals that the new covenant is better than the imperfect Old One. The imperfection being implicit in calling the new one better.

By this we seem to be left with several unpleasant options, such as that God is inept and makes mistakes, OR that God doesn't care what happens to man (compared to a human parent), it is all up to him, OR that the Bible is in grievous error and therefore cannot be trusted on its own. Another option, though, would be that a different interpretation is correct, one that preserves both God as an omnipotent being who is Good, and also preserves the revelation that He intended to give man via written word.

But if you think about it, either God was leading the Jews into failure, knowingly, or God allowed the Jews to fail, but out of His goodness continued to offer them chances to repent.

The idea that God would continue to offer chances to those who failed, after HE failed, is solely an Apostolic one (if it is even that). "Failure" has to be distinguished between God's and man's. God cannot fail, but man sure can. God chose from among all the people living in OT times, just as He chose from among all people today. To some He will show mercy and to others He will not. There is no "failure" in that.

And how do we reconcile that Christ sent His disciples to minister to the twelve tribes of Israel knowing that they would fail?!

Well, what would you have considered their "success"? Correct me if I am wrong, but I infer from all of your recent comments that if the Gospels had immediately spread like wildfire among the Jews, and been accepted, then the Gentiles would have been locked out forever. From my standpoint, I sure wouldn't call that success! :) However, since God ALWAYS intended to reach the Gentiles en mass, then what you call the failure of the Jews I would call the success of God. :)

[Forest Keeper]

As often as you thank others for their encouragements, let me also thank you for your encouragements! :)

And I have noticed among my Catholic relatives the phenomenon of uncertainty. It seems to result from a sense of separate-from-God responsibility for doing good works and a lingering doubt that anything they could do would be good enough.

Yes, I have noticed this as well and see this as a great difference between Apostolics and many Protestants. Of course there are several people who call themselves Protestants who in fact have a false faith and are in great peril. However, this does not change the Biblical fact that any Christian CAN KNOW FOR SURE if he or she is among God's children. And that is regardless of whatever church one attends, etc.

And thank you so much for the assurance verses. The time of passing of a loved one really is one when the rubber meets the road. When both of my parents passed away a few years ago I really had no idea how I would actually react. I knew what my previous words were, but I had never lived it. Praise be to God that He carried me all the way through, and while there was sadness, there was no despair, or anything approaching it. Such is the power of God and His word through His promises. :)

[Uncle Chip]

Needless to say the Serbian Holocaust remains a sad chapter in the history of WWII, a chapter quickly swept under the rug, not finding its way into any history books that I ever read

Yes, that is amazing and puzzling. Which is what makes Kolokotronis and other Orthodox posters here wonder why is it the Protestant West determined to bury or destroy Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

No one is doing that but yourselves. Why didn't the EO go after Ante Pavelich living in luxury in Spain themselves as the Jews went after other NAZI war criminals. They didn't whine about it -- they took action.

And when the Serbian army was pursuing the KLA terrorists in Kosovo, where was the vocal support from the EO Church, or your EO brethren in Greece and elsewhere in the Balkans and Eastern Europe??? Why not blame them for not supporting the Serbs??? Where were they??? And here in America I heard not a whimper from any EO church and when I asked people who were EOs, they all looked at me as if to say that's their problem.

Your EOs want to be left alone -- but then when in trouble they want someone else to rescue them. Which is it???

According to your own EO religion the Serb military action against the KLA was a grave sin. They had to go to war to kill Muslims to protect the very EO ecclesiastics who criticized them for doing so. Your religious theology is your problem -- not someone else's.

And before you refer to the West as the "Protestant West", I suggest that you do some actual study on the actual religious makeup of the West. The majority of the Protestants in the West are of liberal denominations and have the same view of scripture that you EO and the RC do.

If you really want to know who to blame for the Ratlines that enabled those responsible for the Serbian Holocaust to escape to the West, go read John Loftus' book and you will find that, among the culprits, the Vatican and the Knights of Malta were right in the middle of it all. So put the blame where it belongs --

[Forest Keeper]

[Dr. E. to A-G:] AMEN! This is the nagging fear and doubt that nearly drove Luther mad. In struggling to be righteous in his own mind and heart, and to perform enough good works he realized nothing he could do would be good enough to merit salvation.

And AMEN to your AMEN! :) That's a great historical reminder that the issues we have today are in many cases the same as they were at the beginning of the Reformation. One difference would be in what has been made up since. :)

Some say we blithely think we're saved and that's the end of it. But in reality while this fact may be easy to read in the Bible, it's not so easy to really, truly believe that Christ has done it all for us. Trusting God completely is not in our DNA.

AMEN again, Dr. E. We are accused all the time that our theology says that once we "know" we are saved, what use is there in leading a Christian life? Why not just go out and live for wine, women (or men, or whatever they call the third option nowadays) and song? YET, in my perusals of tens of thousands of posts in my short time here, I have never once, not a single time, read a Bible believing Christian espouse such a philosophy. In fact, by the testimonies I've read, it is rather the Bible believing Christians who are really pulling the wagon, and doing Kingdom work. How can that be?

In further fact, there are many of my Baptist brethren, who believe in the plain meaning of OSAS, those who would be MOST susceptible to shirking Christian responsibility, who are among the most active among those I know. How can this be? It can be because the accusation is FALSE and hollow. Changed hearts do not care about earning points, changed hearts WANT to serve God, so they DO! :) As you said, it is not in our DNA to trust God completely so God changes our DNA to make it happen. After that, selfish desires go way down and desires to love and obey God go way up.

[Kolokotronis]

“...where was the vocal support from the EO Church, or your EO brethren in Greece and elsewhere in the Balkans and Eastern Europe???”

You had moved to another planet during the Kosovo war, right UC?

[stfassisi]

“Do you believe that God planned all of the events in the thief on the cross’ life that led up to his audience with Jesus there?”

God did not make the thief sin or preprogrammed the thief to sin, He simply used the situation that was at hand and the thief freely asked Christ to forgive Him.

Sin belongs to man and never to God

...And God does use unfortunate situations such as illness and other things to allow man to freely Choose Him.

Catholic’s/Orthodox don”t believe God sets up a stage play of puppets.

God reacts to everything in one NOW ,one event!

[Forest Keeper]

Sheeesh, what is this, Valentines Day?

OK Mr. love-fest-interupter- ........ guy, how about you tell us what K has to look forward to this Thursday. And don't worry, everyone on the ping list has already sworn an oath of secrecy so you don't have to worry about that. It's in the vault. :)

[blue-duncan]

Well, all you graduates of Miss Sissy’s Charm School, besides Ray Steven’s, “Ahab the Arab” and the theme song for “Tim the Toolman”, what is your favorite Valentine’s tune?

I put on a Frank Sinatra cd for K and his arrangement of “Speak Low” has to be right near the top.

[Uncle Chip]

You had moved to another planet during the Kosovo war, right UC?

Yeh -- it was crowded with EOs up there -- especially those Greek ones.

[blue-duncan]

“Kim Sjostrom wanted a real-life version of the film “My Big Fat Greek Wedding,” which played in the background as friends fixed her hair and makeup before her own marriage ceremony. But less than an hour after she and Teddy Efkarpides were wed, Sjostrom crumpled in her husband’s arms during a Greek song that means “Love Me.”

Sad, but I understand that HHS is going to require a warning label on all Greek Weddings now.

[kosta50]

No one is doing that but yourselves. Why didn't the EO go after Ante Pavelich living in luxury in Spain themselves as the Jews went after other NAZI war criminals. They didn't whine about it -- they took action

Forgive me, but this shows how na&iunl;ve you are. Things are not that simple. The EO's were enslaved by communism brought on by the Yalta (1943) agreement between Roosevelt Churchill and Stalin, which carved up Europe as spoils for the big powers' influence after the war.

In fact, initially, Yugoslavia was to be split like Germany, eastern part (Serbia, Montenegro) to the Soviets, and the western part (Croatia, Slovenia) to US/UK influence.

In all fairness, Roosevelt was against this. But Roosevelt's own Vice President (Wallace) was himself a communist (in fact he ran in 1947 on a communist ticket for President), and probably had undue influence in his Administration.

It was immediately after Yalta that Allied supplies to Yugoslav resistence groups began shifting towards supporting communists, giving them the upper hand that was instrumental in the eventual communist takeover.

Also don't forget that in 1944, the Soviet Red Army entered Serbia through Bulgaria and began pushing Germans, along with Yugoslav communists (partisans) westward, but also establishing communist control over the country.

After the war, the communist regime led by Josip Broz Tito, a Croat) was busy cleaning up pockets of Royalist (anti-communist) resistance in the country, creating a one-party system, and putting down Albanian revolt in Kosovo (over a failed promise made by communists to them in 1943).

By that time, the US did not care to hear what communist Yugoslavia wanted, even though I am sure demands for extradition of Pavelich were made plain to the west. The communists had their own ax to grind with the Ustashe, so it wasn't being done out of compassion for the suffering Serbs.

[kosta50]

And when the Serbian army was pursuing the KLA terrorists in Kosovo, where was the vocal support from the EO Church, or your EO brethren in Greece and elsewhere in the Balkans and Eastern Europe...And here in America I heard not a whimper from any EO church and when I asked people who were EOs, they all looked at me as if to say that's their problem...

Really? There was plenty of vocal support, and that can be proven through simple research. Serbian Unity Congress sent repeated letters to the Clinton White House and the Defense Department with no avail; and the media largely ignored Serbian responses. The truth was simply "filtered out" in American media, and the Iranian-British Christianna Amanpour, Richard Holbrooke, and others were given free reign to disseminate whatever lies they chose.

That's why you didn't hear about it. It was also distorted with fabrications that turned out to be propaganda disinformation (such as VP Gore's assertion that 100,000 Albanians have been killed; to this day less than 3,000 bodies from all ethnic groups have been recovered).

No one was interested in the Serbian side of the story. In fact, Serbia's own TV station (a civilian object)was targeted by the NATO bombers because it was a source of "propaganda" because it was showing things we didn't want our viewers to see. Our media were equally biased, which is obvious from watching different channels (i.e. FoxNews blatantly supporting the Republican and MSNBC being equally blatantly pro-Democratic) I am sure an attack on CNN or Fox or any other TV station would have been termed a terrorist act.

If democracy cannot defend its moral higher ground with truth, then how are we better than others? He who is innocent should never resort to lying, and lying (such as playing bombing runs at three times the speed to make it look like the train was hit accidentally is big time lying) is an indication that we also can't handle the truth.

[kosta50]

According to your own EO religion the Serb military action against the KLA was a grave sin

In keeping with the earliest fathers' writings, the Church established by Christ will never endorse war, just as the Church will never endorse sin. But people sin and that is the reality of the fallen world. Just because we continue to sin, doesn't mean the Church can in principle say it's okay.

The majority of the Protestants in the West are of liberal denominations and have the same view of scripture that you EO and the RC do.

The numbers are irrelevant. It's what influence is exerted by certain groups because of the power structure.

read John Loftus' book and you will find that, among the culprits, the Vatican and the Knights of Malta were right in the middle of it all

If that is the case, we should use his irrefutable "proofs" and put the Vatican on trial for war crimes, since war crimes never go out of date. Obviously, either there is either not evidence evidence for such a trial, or because such a trial would be undesirable from a pragmatic point of view.

We have evidence that Turkey committed genocide on its Christian Armenian population in the 1920's and we refuse to this day to acknowledge it officially because it is a "sensitive" issue with our long-time important ally. It sort of follows Roosevelt's logic—to paraphrase him, they may be thugs but they are our thugs.

It's much easier to be an "idealist" and see everything through the lens of Hollywood make-believe fairytales then to face the reality we cannot live up to for pragmatic reasons.

[wmfights]

The damning evidence agaist the Catholic Church's behavior during this time involves forced "conversion" of Orthodox Serbs into the (Roman) Catholic faith. But that was the Church's policy ever since Austrian Empress Maria Theresa instituted aggressive Uniate conversions in the 18th century.

I think we can go back to when the church first started having the power of the state behind it to find persecution of Christians who did submit to it's authority. No matter which group suffers it is wrong and it certainly would not justify doing it to them when the roles were reversed.

WM: Is this another example of what we discussed earlier where organizations become "organisms of sorts" and protection of the organization becomes more important than the mission

K:I would say it is more a reflection of the self-righteous, self-serving, fallen human nature.

I think the history speaks for itself.

Your lamenting that Evangelicals did nothing to stop these atrocities is understandable, but wrong. I may have very strong beliefs that the EOC and RCC are wrong in large areas of doctrine but I would never want any harm to come to them and I know of no other Christians who would. I've never heard of anyone proposing such a thing and if I did a know a whole bunch of Christians who would condemn it.

The problem is probably more rooted in our liberal, politically correct media.

[Pyro7480]

The Knight of Malta... LOL! If it weren’t for the Knights of Malta and actions by other “Papists,” Europe would have been Islamic in 1650. Too bad the Europeans squandered their opportunity, since they’ll be largely Islamic by 2050 - a delay of 400 years.

[kosta50]

think we can go back to when the church first started having the power of the state behind it to find persecution of Christians who did submit to it's authority. No matter which group suffers it is wrong and it certainly would not justify doing it to them when the roles were reversed.

Power corrupts, and the Founding Fathers had the wisdom to create a system of checks and balances precisely in order to avoid any one particular group or indiviual from attaining too much power. They did this because they learned from a harsh lesson. With power comes self-righteousness (pride). Besides, most people are unaware of goings on because most of the power is exercised behind the scenes accessible to the public.

Your lamenting that Evangelicals did nothing to stop these atrocities is understandable, but wrong. I may have very strong beliefs that the EOC and RCC are wrong in large areas of doctrine but I would never want any harm to come to them and I know of no other Christians who would

Well, same here. But I also never said they wished any harm. But power brokers may not be as sentimental as an average Evangelical. Bottom line is: whether it's Orthodox Greece, or Orthodox Serbia, or even Orthodox Russia, we are more prone to see them as adversaries of the Protestant west than as fellow Christians and often choose their adversaries as our friends and allies.

What have we done about the Muslim slaughter of Christians in Sudan? Where is the outrage in the Christian world? Where are Christian knights defending fellow Christians. I will tell you where they are: in Kosovo helping Albanian Muslims carve out yet another Muslim state in Europe!