Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Remember: He is the God of the living.
Just wanted to let you know that I do want to continue this debate. Now, however, I must go to bed for a 22:00 CST start tonight. (I'm getting too old for the all nighters with no sleep) Suffice it to say though, that I never use the Word of God in a regurgitating manner, never any vain repetitions..."as the heathen". Expect me in the morning though.
In Christ...Alone!
Christs death and resurrection destroyed death and opened the gates of heaven. Are you implying all who merely assent to this are saved? Are the angles who were cast out saved?
Nope. That’s your interpretation and a faulty one at that.
The Bible is clear that faith holds a first and prominent role in the salvation of every person.
Heb 10:38
But my just one shall live by faith ...
Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him (God) ...
The Bible is equally clear on the saving role of good works in the lives of the faithful.
1 Pet 2:12
Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that if they speak of you as evildoers, they may observe your good works and glorify God on the day of visitation.
Rev 2:2
I know your works, your labor, and your endurance ...
Mt 5:16
Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
Mt 25:34-36
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
THE BIBLE MAKES IT CLEAR THAT THERE MUST BE A BALANCED RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN OUR FAITH AND ITS EXPRESSOIN IN GOOD WORKS.
James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.
James 2:20-22
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
1 Cor 3:8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.
The Bible indicates that it is wrong to disturb the balance of works expressing a life of faith. Man is not saved by faith alone.
James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Nor is man saved by works alone.
Rom 9:31-32
Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law ... because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works.
Gal 3:11
And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for “the one who is righteous by faith will live.”
The Bible declares that salvation is a gift of God alone and constantly reaffirms that faith has a primary role in that salvation.
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.
Heb 6:1
Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,
Heb 9:14
... how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
2 Tim 1:9
He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 3:4-5
... the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy.
Rom 3:27-28
What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Gal 2:16
(We) know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
The constant teaching of the Roman Catholic Church on these Scriptures was clearly restated on January 13, 1547.
Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. VIII
When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, “without which it is impossible to please God” and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, “if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,” as the Apostle says, “grace is no more grace.”
The Council also reiterated the relationship of good works to man justified by faith.
Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. XVI
Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: “Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name”; and “Do not lose confidence, which hath a great reward.” Hence, to those who work well “unto the end” and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.
I’ll see your faith against the works of those martyrs who are named in this thread anytime.
It shouldn’t be this way. But you and your ilk insist that Catholics are pagan and that is a disgrace and an affront to the Body of Christ of all believers.
“Why would Paul, who I would think would meet the definition of “saved” need to keep running the race?”
All of these verses explain why Paul was running; not because he feared losing his salvation, but out of love and reward of pleasing his Savior.
2 Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
1 Cor. 3:12-15 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Cr 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
1Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
2Ti 4:7-8 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Hbr 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
As a child you want to please your parents and not shame the family name. You may be alienated from the family and even disowned but it does not cut off the family genes. You are still biologically the family; so to with the family of God.
If Rome would simply direct its membership to the Bible each man and woman could read for themselves... "And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward. And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness." -- Isaiah 8:15-22
As we have seen.
It is not idolatry, just a little token to focus the thoughts.
If you are saying that in James, we must show our works in order to be saved, then you are saying the the Bible is contradicting itself.
Paul says in Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
If what you say is true, then what Paul says isn't. Which is it?
Are you implying...
I don't imply anything! It's what you infer that is the problem.
See y'all in the morning.
In Christ...Alone!
Obtain what?
Yes, we're all familiar with Rome's little attempted end-run around the word of God. I doubt God is fooled.
Scripture says we are not to pray to people who have left this life of the living and entered into the next life.
Praying to those who are no longer living on planet earth is necromancy.
Repent of it.
nec·ro·man·cy (nÄ•k'rÉ™-măn'sÄ“) n.
1. The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2. Black magic; sorcery.
3. Magic qualities.
Nope, not guilty of any of this. When I pray to a member of the Church Triumphant, I ask them to lay my prayers on the alter of the Lord, I ask them to intercede for me, with the implicit knowledge that all prayers are ultimately directed to the only One who has the authority to answer. God is the focus of our prayers and the source of all answers, both recognized and unrecognized.
You ability to see into the hearts of the prayerful is quite a "gift".
“When I travel to Asia, I don’t see RCCs, I see Buddhists.”
You must not be looking.
In Thailand, more than 90% of the population practices Buddhism and 5% follow Islam. In this land of Buddhist temples and scattered mosques, the Redemptorists have built a reputation. About 80 Redemptorist priests dot the map of Thailand, leading social projects and preaching salvation through the Bible.
http://www.travelblog.org/Asia/Thailand/North/Chiang-Khong/blog-169198.html
The Mekong river from Chian Khong to Wiang Kaen seperating Thailand and Loas...So after a very fortunate meeting with Marie during our plane ride from Singapore to Bangkok we finally headed up to Chiang Khong to visit the ‘ Catholic Mission of Wiang Kaen’ which has been the highlight of Thailand so far. The warmth we felt from the center and the welcome from Marie and the Sisters and Father Pauls humour kept us laughing all night.
FANTASTIC PHOTOS OF THE MISSION AND PEOPLE
Maryknoll, The U.S. based Catholic mission movement includes: the Maryknoll Society (priests and brothers), Maryknoll Congregation (Sisters), the Maryknoll Mission Association of the Faithful [MMAF] (laity, priests and religious), and the Maryknoll Affiliates.
“Since 1911, Catholics in the United States have responded to the worldwide cry of the poor by becoming Maryknoll Missioners. Today, Maryknollers help people overseas build communities of faith. Some work in war zones with refugees, others minister to the sick, the elderly, orphans or people with AIDS. Through lives of service, Maryknollers translate the gospel of love into different languages and in different cultures.”
The Maryknoll presence in Cambodia involves the whole Family . . . Sisters, Priests, MMAF singles and couples. This Year 2000 is seeing a few departures after many years of service, but many more new arrivals.
http://www.parish-without-borders.net/Cambodia/maryknoll.htm
Former Maoists and Animists anxious to become Christians by 2000
Interview with Bishop Abraham Than, of Kentung
Rome (Fides) – The diocese of Kentung covers a territory which runs from the western borders with Laos and Thailand to the River Salween (in east Myanmar). In the last eight years more than 13 thousand people have discovered the Christian faith thanks to EV Touring Groups which go from village to village. Many more, including tribals and animists, others with no religion at all and even declared atheists and former communists, are preparing and will be ready to become members of the Church by the Jubilee of 2000. Bishop Than, recently in Rome for the cause of the beatification of Fr Clemente Vismara PIME, whom he assisted to the very last, spoke with Fides about his diocese.
How is the propagation of the faith going in Myanmar?
Evangelization is easier in some places than others. In the capital Yangoon where people are mainly Buddhists, there are not many conversions. This is also true of Mandalay Archdiocese. But in areas where missionaries have worked, such as Loikaw and Lashio, the percentage of Catholics, already high (about 25% Fides), continues to rise. In my diocese Kentung we find a fertile ground for evangelization among former communists, the majority of the population. In 1990 the people of Nam Pan village came to me asking for a new religion. They found no joy in being disciples of Mao and wanted to become disciples of Jesus. At this invitation we set to work and the whole region north of the diocese (Special Region 4) embraced the faith. In these last twelve months the seed of the faith has spread to Special Region 2, north east. Since 1990 we have made more progress than in the previous twenty years: more than 10 thousand baptisms in Region 4 and more than 3 thousand in Region 2 between 1997-1998. (see Fides October 31st 1998).
http://www.sspxasia.com/Countries/Myanmar/NewsArchive.htm
Actually, I have to go through every country and province so this is going to take a while. You see, Catholics are in every part of the globe, every country, everywhere taking care that everyone is given the Good News.
Later.
Christ said, "Be not afraid; only believe." (Mark 5:36)
If it comes doesn to believing the doctrines of men and a phony magisterium, or the words of Jesus Christ, I'll choose Christ, by the grace and power of God alone.
And Bible-believing Christians are secure in this choice because they know that it's the Holy Spirit who gives them the gift of a saving faith in Jesus Christ.
Are the angles who were cast out saved?
Do you know of any "cast out angels" who believe Christ is their Lord and Saviour? I don't.
“The organization you think of as the Catholic Church didn’t exist until around 300 years after Christ and about 200 years after the Bible.”
Oh, please. ~Parsing that little ditty again.
Changing history to suit yourself doesn’t make it true.
The Catholic Church is established on Pentecost.
And you'd lose.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -- Romans 4:4-5"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
If the Catholic Church is wrong (which is the hypothesis I was responding to in my discussion with wmfights) then the next best one would be the Orthodox. IOW, the Orthodox is the only Church, in that circumstance.
I'm not saying that the hypothesis is correct, I was saying that as a matter of course in our discussion, IF the Catholic Church is wrong, then the Orthodox is right. Obviously I believe the Catholic Church is the only one or else I would be a hypocrite for staying IN the Catholic Church, now WOULDN'T I? It's called "an either OR" situation, not "either AND."
I pray to God I have the mental strength to no longer respond to baiting commentary. Hey, at least I believe there can be ONLY ONE Church, unlike some on this forum who evidently believe in the axiom, "Any church BUT Catholic", i.e., some amorphous, invisible, UNDEFINABLE "church", which is the exact opposite of "one Church", and indeed, ANTITHETICAL to the concept of "unity among Christianity".
Oh that's right, I forgot, the only relevant definition for "Christianity" is if someone says the "Sinners Prayer" (a prayer not found in Scripture by the way), and responds when asked, "I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior". < /sarc > (by the way, I fail to see how given that definition, the JW's and Mormons don't qualify, much LESS the Catholics)
Or is that NOT the definition of Christian? If not, then you can tell me what it is, and then someone else can tell me another definition, and another, another definition, and so on, and so on. But they're all part of the same "invisible Church", right? As long as they aren't Catholic, right?
Note, those are more rhetorical questions than actual; like I said to wmfights, I'm really not interested in debate anymore. Not until I'm convinced the person I'm conversing with is willing to listen and ABSORB responses, rather than jerk their knee.
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