Mormonism in Evangelical Voter Guide (Dobson)

The Washington Compostt ^ | January 25, 2008 | RACHEL ZOLL

[HokieMom]

An executive for one of the nation's leading evangelical groups says in a video voter guide that Mitt Romney has "acknowledged Mormonism is not a Christian faith," although the GOP presidential candidate has said he follows Jesus Christ and his church insists it is Christian.

Tom Minnery, senior vice president of government and public policy at Focus on the Family Action, said in an interview Friday that the comment was his interpretation of Romney's December "Faith in America" speech that was meant to reassure voters about his religion.

Minnery said that he spoke with the campaign after the video was posted this week and they did not contest his view or ask him to retract the statement.

"We've got a good relationship with them," he said.

Kevin Madden, a Romney spokesman, said in an e-mail that "campaign guides by advocacy groups consist of their viewpoints." Madden referred to Romney's faith speech when asked if the former Massachusetts governor considers himself Christian.

[counterpunch]

Thanks.
And I agree.
Of course there are always going to be those bigots out there.
I’m just pretty sure we have a lot less of them in our party than the Democrats have in theirs.
Just ask Bill and Hillary.

[Colofornian]

When the LDS Church found out about it, it tried the people and executed the leader. It was never sanctioned by the LDS leaders, and the investigation and trial cleared the LDS Church in that regard.

The sanctioning question is open-ended and there's evidence on both sides. This question probably won't be settled minus new evidence.

As for the LDS Church's after-the-fact response, that is the sorry part. For one thing, Brigham Young was both "prophet" and territorial governor when this occurred; therefore, even though he didn't remain much longer as governor, he could have immediately "stepped up" the response.

The "execution of the leader" you referred to just happened to be the 2nd child adopted by Young. (Is it any wonder it took almost 20 years for him to be executed?) And why was he the only one out of dozens of mass murderers to be executed?

Why did it take 17 years for the LDS Church to ex-communicate him? (The facts were known to numerous witnesses for years...it took almost 2 years to remove the LDS bishop, Isaac Haight, involved in the massacre)

I have to commend the LDS for a quite forthright lengthy press release on this matter from June of '07. (The only question is why it took them only 150 years to be so forthright?)

Not quite. When Joseph Smith asked God which Christian church to join (he was partial to the Methodist faith), the Father and Son appeared to him and Christ told Smith not to join any of them, as none were his church. He advised Smith that they taught the teaching of men as though they were his words, but that they were wrong.

Here, I'll let Smith speak for himself: "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt....(Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith--History 1:19

So what? If Baptists believed that the RC Church was right, they would be Baptists.

Nowhere do Baptists say ALL [Catholic] creeds [are] an abomination in his [God's] sight, that those professors are ALL corrupt...

And if you somehow found me one out of millions of world-wide Baptists who did say that, you wouldn't have a Baptist alleluia chorus planting such a statement as a follow-up "Scripture" to the Book of Revelation (and then accepted world-wide by Baptists everywhere as "Scripture")

Those statements are to the belief that any church other than that founded directly by Jesus Christ is not of Him. Nonetheless, the LDS Church does not teach against any other church...

Millions of Book of Mormons of this teaching, and millions of Pearl of Great Price(s) with the teaching above, are printed in dozens of languages & distributed world-wide. (So what's this nonsense about not "teaching" against any other church? What if it's in print, it doesn't count?)

Besides that, the LDS Church has sent out a million missionaries--60,000+ presently--who go door-to-door with one of their four prime teachings being the so-called universal (meaning complete) apostasy of the historic Christian church (LDS teachers often say this occurred by the 4th century) & restoration.

Everytime an LDS missionary introduces the topic of the so-called "apostasy" (they are not teaching a partial apostasy) & restoration, they are indeed teaching that the Catholic church apostacized & that the Protestant church doesn't have any divine authority, either.

Some of the worst representations of Christianity were printed in 1966 and 1978 by an LDS apostle, Bruce R. McConkie, in a book called "Mormon Doctrine." McConkie's 1958 version was not approved by LDS leadership. But his ensuing versions were--from the First Presidency. (If you don't stop this nonsense that the LDS Church does not teach against any other church, I'll trot out the McConkie quotes & let others decide for themselves).

[tortdog]

Trot out all you like. The LDS Church does not hide its claim to have been founded by Christ - litetrally - and to be the only church with priesthood authorized by God.

It is another thing to claim that the LDS Church attacks the faith of others, puts out lies such as the “Godmakers,” and starts claiming that other people are not Christian because they don’t think like we do.

And the LDS Church dies not teach that members of any other church are going to Hell. In fact, we agree that good members of other Christian churches will receive exactly what they teach (just no more).

Hate and bigotry? We will leave that to the so-called Christians who claim to have the exclusive right to that title. That is your province.

[Godzilla]

Not quite. When Joseph Smith asked God which Christian church to join (he was partial to the Methodist faith), the Father and Son appeared to him and Christ told Smith not to join any of them, as none were his church. He advised Smith that they taught the teaching of men as though they were his words, but that they were wrong.

If Smith's 1820 'vision' was so life changing and the command from god not to join any of the other churches so strong, then why did he try joining the Methodist church in June of 1828?

Nonetheless, the LDS Church does not teach against any other church, and does not claim that followers of other churches are going to Hell (though some so-called Christians claim that all Mormons are going to Hell).

Brigham Young
"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73).
"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).
John Taylor
"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast." (Journal of Discourses 6:25).
Orson Pratt
"The worshipers of Baal were far more consistent than apostate Christendom; for they had a faint hope that Baal would hear and answer them; but modern divines have no expectation that their God will say anything to them or to their followers. Baal's followers cried from morning until evening for him to give unto them a miraculous manifestation, in the presence of Elijah; but to even expect a supernatural manifestation or revelation now is considered, by modern religionists, as the greatest absurdity. Baal's worshipers, therefore, with all their absurdities, approached nearer the religion of heaven, in some of their expectations, than those who falsely call themselves Christians" (Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, No. 1 (1850), pp.12-13).
Spencer W. Kimball
"This is the only true church ...This is not a church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. There are churches of men all over the land and they have great cathedrals, synagogues, and other houses of worship running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. They are churches of men. They teach the doctrines of men, combined with the philosophies and ethics and other ideas and ideals that men have partly developed and partly found in sacred places and interpreted for themselves" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pg.421).
Bruce McConkie
"The gods of Christendom, for instance, are gods who were created by men in the creeds of an apostate people. There is little profit or peace in serving them, and certainly there is no salvation available through them" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pg.545).

So much for the purity of mormons claim that they do not "teaching against other churches" or "does not claim that followers of other churches are going to Hell"

[tortdog]

Claiming that other Christian churches lack the fulness of the gospel is not the same thing as putting out a movie on why Catholics (or any other sect) is going to Hell.

What Mormons do NOT do is claim that other believers in Christ are not Christian. We don’t preach against any single church from the pulpit. We don’t have “witnessing to Baptist” classes. And we don’t publish anti-Methodist (name your church) literature - let alone do so and fill it full of lies.

What we DO is claim to be the one, true church. But that is it. Because we believe that, necessarily every other church is false. But we don’t single one out.

And who cares ir we believe that. They should believe that we are wrong too. But that doesn’t mean you attack the faith of others.

[Godzilla]

What Mormons do NOT do is claim that other believers in Christ are not Christian.

Your protestings none the less are not borne out by the limited selection I posted previously. There are a lot more documented statements and teachings out there.

Because we believe that, necessarily every other church is false. But we don’t single one out.

I would really like to know WHAT Christian church mormonism finds acceptable and doctrinally correct. And please provide some documentation, because the condemnation of the Christian church from Smith to the present have been global and universal. Your bom makes it clear that there are only two churches - lds and the evil church. As shown in the previous post, mormonism's denunciations of Christianity are abundant and strong (some here would call them antichristian and bigoted).

But that doesn’t mean you attack the faith of others.

We (or at least I), challenge you fundamental definitions of why you try to call yourselves 'christian'. As it has been throughly documented that mormondom does not consider historical Christianity as being 'true' Christianity, I would say to you sir why are persist in denegrating MY faith. Mormonism makes claims that can be verified and evaluated. The fact that when this is done, it comes up short isn't 'attacking'. Persistent cries of 'attack' in the absence of credable proof to the contrary to the open teachings and actions of mormonism only solidify the perception of the weakness of mormon faith.

[Not just another dumb blonde]

When one says that Jesus Christ and Satan are brothers, they are promoting a “christ” other than God’s Son. God and Christ and the Holy Spirit always were, and Satan (Lucifer) was created by God, so how can Christ and Satan be brothers? This is why Mormons are not considered “christian”, they go against God’s Word. Show me scripture in the Bible that supports this argument, please, or not. And yes, I’m one of those “so-called christians”.

[Elsie]

The LDS Church does not hide its claim to have been founded by Christ - litetrally - and to be the only church with priesthood authorized by God.

And I do not hide my claim that your Organization was founded by an ignorant, 14 yo farmboy with no bible training, deceived by two demons; as accurately porttrayed by the Bible.

[Elsie]

...good members ...

And how do you judge this?

[Elsie]

What Mormons do NOT do is claim that other believers in Christ are not Christian.

Sematics, Lawyer.

[Elsie]

We don’t have “witnessing to Baptist” classes.

You do have “witnessing to folks who don't know their Bible" classes.

[Elsie]

But that doesn’t mean you attack the faith of others.

Coachs will tell you that you do not win games with the defense.

[MHGinTN]

Naw, it’s just a flatout lie else they would not be constantly be baptizing for dead people who are not Mormons ... if you die without Mormon baptism, you have to have theirs or you are not going into God’s presence regardless of being even Pope John Paul!... The poster wants to leave the specious impression that the entire religion of Mormonism is not based on the assumption that ONLY Mormon pass to paradise is accept at the Paradise Gates. That’s not semantics, LC, that’s just lying for the lord.

[tortdog]

I belive that a Christian is one who professes to believe in Christ and follow His teachings. I do not argue that a man is not Christian because his understanding of Christ and His teachings vary from my own.

That is the difference between you and me. And I suggest that my attitude comes closer to the doctrine of Christ than your own.

[tortdog]

We believe that the Father created all things, including the Son and Lucifer who is Satan. All persons created by the Father are therefore His sons (by the ordinary definition of the word).

We believe that Lucifer was an angel of light, but that he sought to lift himself up in the place of the Only Begotten, seeking the Father’s glory for himself. The Son turned to the Father, subjected His will to the Father, and obeyed.

The Father rejected Lucifer, casting him and his followers down to earth and out of His presence.

The true brothers of Jesus Christ are those who do as the Son has: submit themselves to the Father, becoming perfect even as He is perfect. We all sin, save the Son. Thus the only way to achieve this, and inherit what the Father has promised is to rely on the grace of Christ and doing all that Christ has asked for us.

[Elsie]

That’s not semantics, LC, that’s just lying for the lord.

Oh??

 

 

 

---

 

Hear my words!

[Elsie]

I belive that a Christian is one who professes to believe in Christ and follow His teachings.

And if that person ALSO believes and follows other stuff; then what?

[Elsie]

Thus the only way to achieve this, and inherit what the Father has promised is to rely on the grace of Christ and doing all that Christ has asked for us.

This is where we differ.

[Godzilla]

I belive that a Christian is one who professes to believe in Christ and follow His teachings.

That is all well and good, but that is not the question on the table here - this is:

tortdog Because we believe that, necessarily every other church is false. But we don’t single one out.
Godzilla I would really like to know WHAT Christian church mormonism finds acceptable and doctrinally correct.

You know that IF there is 'non-false' church, then mormonism's claims become invalidated, made clear in the following quote:
James Talmage
"The significance and importance of the great apostasy, as a condition precedent to the re-establishment of the Church in modern times, is obvious. If the alleged apostasy of the primitive Church was not a reality, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution its name proclaims" (The Great Apostasy, preface).

A non-false church would show that there was not a universal apostasy as taught in mormonism.

Secondly, by your silence you are apparently acknowledging that the citations I posted previous are an accurate assessment of the teachings of mormonism at the highest level. For the record, stating documented facts are not by definition, attacks.

I do not argue that a man is not Christian because his understanding of Christ and His teachings vary from my own.

Ah, but that is the crux of the issue here. mormonism denies basic historic Christian doctrines and yet you want to be called Christian. Would it be okay for me to deny basic Mormon doctrines and call myself a Mormon? What a ridiculous concept.

What is at issue here is the WHO of Christ - that is His Person, nature and works - not just association with a historical figure. Is the Jesus of mormonism = Jesus of Christianity in this context? I assume you have a link to the legal profession, then you are aware that words and their meanings are crucial when defining anything. I will also go out on a limb and further assume you are knowledgeable about the differences between our doctrines (If not I can easily place them into my next response). From a comparison of the two, it is evident that the two cannot achieve a common ground and are in fact diametrically opposed to each other on all points.

[Not just another dumb blonde]

Can you please quote scripture backing your claim that God created Christ? Or that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers? What do you think John 1:1-18 means? John 1:14 validates John 1:1. It says in the beginning was the Word, verse 14 says the Word became flesh, so if verse 1 says the Word was with God and the Word was God and He was with God in the beginning, then He always was, and not some created being like Satan. Lucifer was the most high angel, true, but he was a created being, not one who always was. You can believe whatever you want to believe. My beliefs are backed by the Scriptures. Where does it say in the Bible God created Christ, when John 1:1 states that He always was?