The diagram shows a similar reasoning for Mark's "after three days", such that it is "after" one day just after sunset on Wednesday, and so on. The "after two days" in ( ) in the lower part of the chart is according to Hosea 6:1-3.
Posted on 01/11/2008 10:59:47 AM PST by DouglasKC
Well....I've never paid mush attention to either the SDA or to Armstrong....so Why they would conclude something that is so obviously in error....is something that I don't know!
And again, why does the Church of God 7th Day continue to promote a date that has been shown to be a full day off?
Not being a member of this organization I don't have the slightest knowledge of what they do.
I have no link to it but came upon the error while visiting the local Christian University library many years ago back in the 1970's.
Let me ask you a stupid question. What is it about simple Greek words that give you such a problem in understanding? You are aware, of course....that all scholars that belong to religious organizations that preach a Sunday resurrection would have an agenda toward that position....aren't you?
I, on the other hand.....belong to nothing. I don't have an ax to grind. I'm simply reading the Greek!
Thanks for the ping. I am amazed by the amount of discussion this topic has generated.
The basis for my interpretation is simple: Sabbath is always from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.
Jesus was crucified on a Day of Preparation (Friday), and his body was buried before sundown because the Sabbath that would begin at sundown was a high holy day.
The women went to the tomb before sundown, saw where his body was laid, returned home and prepared spices.
The women rested on the Sabbath (from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday).
Early the next morning (Sunday) they went to the tomb and found the stone rolled away
***What is it about simple Greek words that give you such a problem in understanding? ***
I guess these old boys got it wrong also. After all, Greek is their first language!
http://www.goholycross.org/studies/studies_worship.html
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8504
http://gogreece.about.com/cs/greekorthodox/a/easterdates.htm
Next thing we know someone will start posting that Christ died on a “torture stake” and not on the Cross.
Here is the pertinent question: When did they buy those spices?
[Mark 16:1] And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him.
Let's find out which Sabbath it was: [Mark 15:42-47] And now evening having come, seeing it was the preparation, that is, the fore-sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, an honourable counsellor, who also himself was waiting for the reign of God, came, boldly entered in unto Pilate, and asked the body of Jesus. And Pilate wondered if he were already dead, and having called near the centurion, did question him if he were long dead, and having known it from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. And he, having brought fine linen, and having taken him down, wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre that had been hewn out of a rock, and he rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre, and Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of Joses, were beholding where he is laid.
John calls this preparation the Passover Preparation [John 19:14] and it was the preparation of the passover, and as it were the sixth hour, and he saith to the Jews, 'Lo, your king! He then identifies the following day to be the [Leviticus 23:5-6] Sabbath of Unleavened Bread....the day after Passover preparation : [John 19:31] The Jews, therefore, that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath, since it was the preparation, (for that sabbath day was a great one,) asked of Pilate that their legs may be broken, and they taken away.
Scripture has now confirmed there were two separate Sabbaths that week. The weekly Sabbath and the First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread. We have also seen that the women waited until after the First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread [Mark 16:1] before they went out to purchase the spices. We know by reading [Mark 15] that this is the same Sabbath being spoken of as there were no chapters and verses in the original Greek....so we're just following the context.
Now....here's what Luke tells us: [Luke 23:56] and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command. Luke was not an eyewitness to the day's events. He only wrote of what he had discerned from the folks who there. He just tells us what happened and not necessarily in a timely sequence.
But now we know that the women purchased spices after a Sabbath. We also know that those same women prepared those same spices.....and rested for another Sabbath. This should not be at all unusual....because we have already been told that there was a special Sabbath that week also.....two separate Sabbaths with a day in between in which the women could therefore go out and purchase the spices.
Crucifixion/Resurrection Week 30 A.D.
Passover on the 14th [Leviticus 23:5]. First Sabbath of Unleavened on the 15th [Leviticus 23:6]. A non Sabbath day in which to purchase and prepare spices, the 16th. The weekly Sabbath on the 17th of Nisan.
Yes....as a matter of fact....they do have it wrong!
Let's see what the Apostle John had taught all of his disciples to do during this very holy observance.
Here is what Eusebius records that Polycrates wrote: We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord's coming, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall seek out all the saints. Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who fell asleep in Hierapolis; and his two aged virgin daughters, and another daughter, who lived in the Holy Spirit and now rests at Ephesus; and, moreover, John, who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined upon the bosom of the Lord, and, being a priest, wore the sacerdotal plate. He fell asleep at Ephesus. And Polycarp in Smyrna, who was a bishop and martyr; and Thraseas, bishop and martyr from Eumenia, who fell asleep in Smyrna. Why need I mention the bishop and martyr Sagaris who fell asleep in Laodicea, or the blessed Papirius, or Melito, the Eunuch who lived altogether in the Holy Spirit, and who lies in Sardis, awaiting the episcopate from heaven, when he shall rise from the dead ? All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the Gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven. I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord, and have met with the brethren throughout the world, and have gone through every Holy Scripture, am not affrighted by terrifying words. For those greater than I have said ' We ought to obey God rather than man'...I could mention the bishops who were present, whom I summoned at your desire; whose names, should I write them, would constitute a great multitude. And they, beholding my littleness, gave their consent to the letter, knowing that I did not bear my gray hairs in vain, but had always governed my life by the Lord Jesus. (Eusebius. Church History. Book V, Chapter 24).
The Apostle John, of course being the last living Apostle, had continued to teach his followers the observance of Passover and there is nothing here mentioned by Polycrates about observing any Sunday morning resurrection. Polycrates wrote late in the second century. I would have thought that the Church of God established by Our Lord and His Apostles would have been recognizing the sanctity of Sunday by this time. It is obvious from Church History that they did not.....because "IT" was not!
***The Apostle John, of course being the last living Apostle, had continued to teach his followers the observance of Passover and there is nothing here mentioned by Polycrates about observing any Sunday morning resurrection. ***
That merely shows us that some of those in the East continued to observe the Hebrew calender while others used the Roman calender.
No different than the Eastern Orthodox and the Western church celebrating Easter at different times.
BUT book 5 Chapter 25 shows the agreement to celebrate at one time using the Julian calender. Now those in the West use the Gregorian.
Only a nitpicker would try to find fault as the purpose of the whole thing is to celebrate the resurection, which was still on SUNDAY, not to celebrate the day.
The diagram shows a similar reasoning for Mark's "after three days", such that it is "after" one day just after sunset on Wednesday, and so on. The "after two days" in ( ) in the lower part of the chart is according to Hosea 6:1-3.
Well I agree on Luke 24:21. Sabbath was the third day.
So....it is your contention that the Apostles John and Philip taught and observed a Sunday morning resurrection, but also still observed Passover?????
You're right! The folks in the East celebrated "According to the Gospel" as Polycrates put it. Why no mention of a Sunday observance by him? Here again is his exact words: We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away.
The folks in Rome did not do this. They celebrated another day, which according to John, Philip, Polycrates and even Polycarp would not have been according to the Gospel.
BUT book 5 Chapter 25 shows the agreement to celebrate at one time using the Julian calender. Now those in the West use the Gregorian.
Well.....you didn't see the last living Apostle agree to this. What you saw was the Church of Rome exerting its influence and power over the Church in the East. I think I'll stick with John, Philip and Paul who all continued to observe Passover on the 14th and ignored any type of Sunday observance.
And, by the way.....the resurrection was on the Sabbath....not Sunday. There is not one word in the Greek that would lead anyone to believe that Our Lord was resurrected on Sunday. I have proved this simple fact by quoting at least four separate passages in the Greek that shows the tomb empty on the Sabbath. The only thing you continue to post is the tired old refrain that has been shown to be a fraud....."The first Day of the Week".
You know....I'm always surprised when folks see this information about Polycrates and don't even scratch their heads in wonderment. I guess the feeling they must have is that John and Philip didn't get the word about the new Sunday observance tradition and the abolition of the Sabbath observances. I guess the mail was slow to Ephesus.
Did you get most of your questions answered by that "Help" page. Just contact me anytime if I can be of assistance. :)
***you continue to post is the tired old refrain that has been shown to be a fraud.....”The first Day of the Week”. **
http://www.mesharet.org/resources/feast-of-first-fruits.html
In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries, (for in this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the Egyptians,) the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt, and which was called the Passover; and so we do celebrate this passover in companies, leaving nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following. The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread; on every one of which days two bulls are killed, and one ram, and seven lambs. Now these lambs are entirely burnt, besides the kid of the goats which is added to all the rest, for sins; for it is intended as a feast for the priest on every one of those days. But on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them. And while they suppose it proper to honor God, from whom they obtain this plentiful provision, in the first place, they offer the first-fruits of their barley, and that in the manner following: They take a handful of the ears, and dry them, then beat them small, and purge the barley from the bran; they then bring one tenth deal to the altar, to God; and, casting one handful of it upon the fire, they leave the rest for the use of the priest. And after this it is that they may publicly or privately reap their harvest. They also at this participation of the first-fruits of the earth, sacrifice a lamb, as a burnt-offering to God.
The day of "First Fruits" is the beginning day of the "Count of the Omer".....the seven weeks to Passover. It is then called "The Feast of Weeks" (49 days)(seven weeks). It is not called "The Feast of Weeks and a couple of days here and there, depending on the year". First Fruits always happens on the 16th.....and because of this it does not always occur on Sunday! It Floats from day to day.....year to year!
I suppose I am going to have to get off my dead behind and go over to the University Library and try to find those books I came upon about 30 years ago that showed the Miaton Sabbathon was the first day of the first week of the seven weeks before Penticost.
Yawn.
Now.....my good friend.....That's the funniest thing you've ever said. LOL
Remember.....If SABBATWN is not translated in that book as Sabbath.....it is in error. And.....by the way.....the Greek has it as "MIA TWN SABBATWN". SABBATON AND SABBATWN are two separate words with different meanings.
Beautiful chart, but Christ was Crucified on a Friday.
LOL
Suuure.
***Remember.....If SABBATWN is not translated in that book as Sabbath.....it is in error.***
Yet the Greeks who have spoken Greek for over 3000 years still say it is the first day of the week.
“Diego like to push the 30 AD theory....” Well I admit I used to push AD 33, and that was long after I figured out the resurrection was on the Sabbath. But my mistakes were, and Diego’s are only because we didn’t finish yet with sorting through the mountain of lies piled on the Scriptures by book burning, dialogue squelching ecclesiastics. (That’s a plug for freedom of the press. Freedom of the press must start in the house of God). In due time the mountain will move, and will jump into the sea.
First of all AD 30 is the year of choice for Roman Catholics. AD 30 admits a Friday crucifixion. The only way you can get Nisan 14 on Wednesday is to put it on March 8, AD 30 J.P., however, as this was before the spring equinox, it is not a legal date for Passover. Hence March, 8 AD 30 was 14 Adar II, and not Nisan. I rather think Diego picked that date for lack of an alternative on several fronts.
This problem, and the problem of Daniel 9 is solved by putting the Passion in AD 34. Nisan 14 in AD 34 was on Wednesday, and Nisan 17 on the Sabbath, completely in agreement with the equinox rule that Nisan 15 be on or after the equinox.
So your first argument with the 15th of Tiberius only helps me because the first Passover of John was in AD 30. I hear you say Diego has a one year ministry. I agree, too short. But so is a three year ministry. Messiah’s ministry was four years. If you read the parable in Luke 13:6ff you will see a solid hint of that. You also need to figure Luke 6:1 as an additional Passover.
Your Daniel 9 argument also falls apart. 483 x 360 = 173,880 days. In order to make this work Harold Hoehner claimed that March 4, 444 BC was Nisan 1 for the Persians. The fact is, that it was not Nisan 1. It was the first of Adar II. Hoehner’s date is not a legal biblical Nisan date nor a Babylonian nor a Persian one. The spring equinox was on March 26, 444 BC. Claiming that March 4, 444 BC is *Nisan 1 would put the 15th well before the equinox. Hardly parsimonious, and does not agree with the rule for three feasts in a year or that Passover be celebrated according to a year of days (from days to days).
So it doesn’t come out to the exact day. First you’ve got to start with the wrong date for Nisan, and then you have to pick an arbitrary date in that *Nisan in 444 to make it come out to the exact day. So its circular reasoning to say the exact day means anything at all other than it was cleverly set up by its proponents.
AD 34 also meets the internal criteria of the gospels. That’s why Sir Isaac Newton and Solomon Zeitlin (famous Jewish Orthodox Scholar) said it was AD 34.
Only AD 34 works with Daniel 9. First off trying to shorten a year to 360 days is totally ad hoc. That type of year went out of style at the time of the flood. And not even the book of Revelation uses a 360 day year. 42 months is not 1260 days. 42 * 29.5 = 1239. A “time” is 353, 354, or 355 days in a normal year. Half a time is six months: 6 * 29.5 = 177 days.
Here is how to work Daniel 9. “Seventy Sevens” are 70 sabbatical years OR 70 sabbatical periods. First count sabbatical years. 445/444 is the first sabbatical year, and AD 32/33 is the 69th sabbatical year. Messiah was “cut off” “after”, which was in AD 34. Or you can count sabbatical periods, so long as you do it inclusively, where part of a sabbatical period counts as a whole. Hence the walls are built in the first sabbatical period (451-444), and the last sabbatical period was (AD 26- AD 33). “After” it Messiah was cut off, i.e. in AD 34. No fuss, no lipstick and bubble gum. Use Israel’s actual sabbatical year.
And the resurrection was on the first sabbath after Passover just as it says in Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, and confirmed by John 20:19 and Mark 16:9, and by usage of “first of the Sabbaths” after passover in Acts 20:7 and 1Cor. 16:2.
Both years IIRC permit Friday crucifixion and a doubled sabbath (Passover concurrent with weekly sabbath). Wed/Thurs does not compute.
But so is a three year ministry. Messiah’s ministry was four years. If you read the parable in Luke 13:6ff you will see a solid hint of that. You also need to figure Luke 6:1 as an additional Passover.
I think that I made the point that many (including myself) view the period of ministry as being about 3.5 years, understanding Luke infers a reference to another passover.
Your Daniel 9 argument also falls apart. 483 x 360 = 173,880 days. In order to make this work Harold Hoehner claimed that March 4, 444 BC was Nisan 1 for the Persians. The fact is, that it was not Nisan 1. It was the first of Adar II.
Interesting point I'll have to review further. Nehemiah identifies the month as Nisan (2:1) corresponding to March 5, 444 BC. I would suspect that he would discern the difference.
Here is how to work Daniel 9. “Seventy Sevens” are 70 sabbatical years OR 70 sabbatical periods. First count sabbatical years. 445/444 is the first sabbatical year, and AD 32/33 is the 69th sabbatical year. Messiah was “cut off” “after”, which was in AD 34.
While you may argue the prophetic use is invalid, if you use the AD 32 as the end of the sabbatical year - you still end up with AD 33. Now according to number / calendar crunchers more anial than I, this method from Mar 1, 444BC yields a termination on Nisan 10, AD 33, the date of the triumphal entry into Jerusalem.
“After” it Messiah was cut off, i.e. in AD 34. No fuss, no lipstick and bubble gum. Use Israel’s actual sabbatical year.
Issue then becomes synchronizing the passover and weekly sabbaths to match the gospel accounts which is impossible for an AD 34 Friday cruxifiction.
confirmed by John 20:19 and Mark 16:9, and by usage of “first of the Sabbaths”
Or the term can refer as Lightfoot and other scholars of Jewish history and literature of the period point out that the phrase is a hebraism and possibly a reference to the first week of seven interveining between Passover and Pentecost - not necessarly refering to the weekly sabbath.
Newton also believed there were five passovers celebrated. Hence a shift from AD 33 to 34 on his part. Another thing to consider is AD 34 it conflicts with the date of Paul's conversion (AD 33/34).
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