Posted on 01/05/2008 7:06:01 AM PST by NYer
WIMAUMA - Father Demetrio Lorden walks into the garage of a concrete block house, slips on his robe and vestments, and unpacks a gold chalice.
He tests a microphone, and as dogs howl nearby, a small group of Hispanic workers and their families launches into a discordant song of praise.
Lorden calls this his "evangelism Mass," the one he has every Monday night in houses and mobile home camps of the Wimauma immigrant community.
Like other Catholic priests with Hispanic members, Lorden is trying to fend off competitors for the parishioners in his pews.
Protestant evangelists - people just as dedicated as he is, but with a quite different approach to Christianity - are aggressively recruiting on his turf. Some target workers as they labor in the fields; others approach them in their homes or at local bodegas, grocery stores.
Catholic priests like Lorden are responding with outreach and Bible studies, hoping to hold on to this large and growing population.
"Hispanic immigrants need to know someone is there caring for them," said Lorden, pastor of Our Lady of Guadalupe church. "But one of the things that pushed me to do that fervently and constantly was because ... other churches and denominations are visiting them and proselytizing them."
Sometimes Lorden's home-based Masses are the only contact workers have with the Catholic church, said Alejandro Lopez, 34, a construction worker who attended Lorden's service on a recent Monday night.
For those who can't make Sunday Mass because of work, Lorden's service helps sustain their faith, especially during hard times, Lopez said.
"It makes you feel better," he said.
The majority of Hispanics in the United States, or 68 percent, still call themselves Catholics. Of those who leave the Catholic church, most become Pentecostal or evangelical Christians or they leave religion all together, according to a national study released this year by the Pew Hispanic Center.
Some Catholic priests acknowledge that Protestant sects like the Pentecostals have responded faster and more aggressively to immigrants with aid and tight-knit worship circles in Spanish.
On a recent Saturday afternoon, the Rev. Jose Luis Correa, a Pentecostal pastor in Dover, handed out pamphlets with some church members as they walked through the parking lots of small Hispanic grocery stores or food stores with Hispanic patrons.
Then, they visited a mobile home park nestled between strawberry fields and railroad tracks. Many residents did not answer the door or weren't home. Others politely took the pamphlets and said they would come to church.
Sometimes, Correa said, he approaches them in the fields with water. Often he brings them clothes and food.
"We tell them we believe God will provide for their needs," said Correa, of Assembly of God or Templo Cristiano. "You're not going to reach them by being on a pulpit or sitting in an office."
Correa tackles their personal problems: marital disputes, alcoholism - a service sometimes lacking in the Catholic church.
For some immigrants like Edin Gonzalez, a 25-year-old Guatemalan carpenter who left most of his family behind, the church has become an instant community.
"It's like my second home. It's my family," he said.
* * *
When Hispanic converts from the Catholic church join Protestant sects, they let go of their attachment to the saints, religious images and Mary, the mother of Jesus, Correa said.
"We don't worship idols," he said.
Catholic priests bristle at the accusation and say Protestant evangelizers are tearing Hispanics away from their culture and faith.
"There's almost like a whole campaign to bring down the blessed Mother like she's the anti-Christ," said Father Carlos Rojas of St. Clement Catholic Church in Plant City.
Rojas, of Puerto Rican decent, said Hispanic Catholics, particularly Mexican Catholics, are very devoted to Mary.
They believe Mary, known as Our Lady of Guadalupe, appeared to a Mexican Indian peasant named Juan Diego in 1531. Juan Diego's story contributed greatly to Catholicism's spread in Mexico.
Recently, in a mix of religion and culture, St. Clement held a three-day festival and a two-day vigil to mark the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe that included Aztec dancers, mariachi bands and statues of the Virgin Mary.
The festival, which took place at the Plant City Stadium, drew 3,000 people, the first time it was held on such a large scale.
And it was yet another effort to cement the Catholic church's historical presence in the Hispanic community.
St. Clement, like other Catholic churches, started a Bible study for its Hispanic members in part to counter Protestant evangelizers, shifting from a tradition that left Bible readings and interpretations to priests.
"When you are entering into dialogue with other religions and people who are attacking the Catholic church, there is a need to have Bible studies," Rojas said. "If you are asked this question, here is a way you can respond."
Juan Gomez, pastor of the Church of God, a Protestant church in Wimauma, said his members don't attack Catholics. They just worship differently.
"We believe that (Mary) was a beautiful woman of God, but in terms of redemption, Christ is the one in terms of intercession, Christ is the interceder, not Mary, as they believe," said Gomez, who converted from Catholicism to the Church of God at 15 after immigrating to Ruskin from Mexico.
Gomez said he questions the Juan Diego story and the Catholic blending of religion with Hispanic culture.
But ultimately, newcomers aren't forced to stay in his church. If they don't like the spirited form of worship and Bible study, they go elsewhere.
"We try to bring people to a deeper relationship with Christ," he said. "It will always be up to the people."
Saundra Amrhein can be reached at amrhein@sptimes.com or (813) 661-2441.
Clear differences between the two
The battle for Hispanic faithful continues to brew between Catholics and Protestants, with both sides increasingly stepping up their recruitment efforts. Among the Protestant denominations, the Pentecostals have been particularly aggressive. Here are some major differences between Catholics and Protestants.
| PROTESTANTS vsCATHOLICS Believe the sacrament, or communion, is symbolic. Believe the sacrament istransformed into the body and blood of Christ. Have no supreme hierarchy such as a pope. Believe in the infallibility of the pope. Many churches, particularly Pentecostals, embrace aspirited worship style. Embrace a liturgical worship style. Allow women to pastor and become bishops. Allow only men to become priests and bishops. See no need for a priest to serve as a mediator between them and God. Revere Mary and the saints and ask them for intercession. Require confession before a priest. |
Source: Roman Catholic Diocese of St. Petersburg
as for the rest, it's typical Protestant dodging and weaving. For such arguers the mere fact of the attack (whatever the content) is victory, and a reply (again, whatever the content) is evidence of defeat. And a vigorous defense to a vicious unreasoning attack is evidence of an even more severe defeat.
Yo! marshmallow! did you goof, as I said, or did I, or what? Iscool here thinks that if we contradict each other on a minor matter that is proof that snake-handlers in West Virginia are right about us. That's what passes for thought in some circles.
Would you prefer a slow fire or a hot one, when we -- full of regret, I assure you -- finally dispose of your case?
Seriously, you made me feel good. 'Preciate it.
I disagree. That statement tells you EXACTLY on which planet you can find Trenton. :)
Here's a different example: "The United States is located on the North American continent." Not very many people would dispute this, but strictly speaking, it's not a true statement. Most of this country is indeed located on the North American continent, but then there's also Hawai'i sitting out there in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. So the statement is "almost accurate", but it is inaccurate nonetheless, and this is due to nothing more than its lack of precision.
But as you said, some people use these words differently, and YMMV. Unfortunately, that can sometimes make discourse pretty difficult.
Here I am. Don't worry, I'm not hiding.
I've been waiting for you to make good on this empty boast:
"I have read numerous times on these threads where Catholics do not believe in a literal heaven or hell...And I bet it wouldn't take me long to find something put out by your church that agrees with that statement..."
Well?
We're waiting.
Are you referring to Jesus??? And I'm not trying to get anywhere with you...
But at the same time, claiming you belong to the church that Jesus founded gets you no where with me...Ha...So stick that in your eye...
Speaking as an ex-Piskie, Episcopalians vary quite a lot. My former ECUSA church was "more Roman than Rome" - "up in the rafters with the bats" as my dad says. But you can have ECUSA churches that are indistinguishable from mainline protestant, and others that are roof-raising charismatic/evangelical. As to why, it's a long story, but it was political back in England.
So it wasn't a great change for us. But I would say there is more Marian devotion in our Catholic parish than there was in our former ECUSA church.
Perhaps it's a little easier to understand if you think of the Blessed Virgin not as standing somehow between you and Christ, but as somebody that you approach respectfully and ask to stand beside you as you pray to her Son. And because she is full of grace and was worthy to bear her Son, she is a model for me to "do whatever he tells me to." Same with the other saints - although Mary is first and foremost of the saints - when I, a lazy and rotten sinner, have the overwhelming chutzpah to approach the Godhead, I feel a little better if I have some good and holy friends by my side to offer moral support.
What your saying is that my statement about Trenton (which, of course, theologically, we call "Hell") is precise because the degree of precision of the locating term was sufficiently broad. Am I right?
I gotta think this over.
It was not an attack...It was not vicious and it was not unreasonable...
And I was not trying to defeat anyone...You defeated yourself by trying to defend yourself...
You are taking this far more seriously than I am...
You might not be aware, but there are several Christian Churches that should not be considered Protestant. These churches either began after the Reformation, or their Christian ancestors were never a part of the Roman Church.
I call ‘em like I see ‘em.
“Foaming at the mouth hatred of Christ gets you nowhere with me.
Are you referring to Jesus??? And I’m not trying to get anywhere with you...
But at the same time, claiming you belong to the church that Jesus founded gets you no where with me...Ha...So stick that in your eye...”
That’s what I mean. Let go of your hatred of Jesus Christ, his Church, and other Christians. Stop doing Satan’s bidding. I will pray for you to find the love of Christ in your heart.
So it goes. Leave it to Christians to find things to tangle about. "See how they love one another."
LOL! Someone doesn't have a very high opinion of New Jersey! :) Anyway, whatever I'm trying to say, I hope it's not as circular as that. The statement is precise in that there is no confusion or ambiguity, regardless of how broad or narrow the claim might be. It seems that we're talking about different meanings of "precise", and I think that's what led to such a circular definition.
“some kind of Communion”
“Some kind of communion” is not the Body and Blood of Christ, nor the Real Presence of Our Lord.
It is a reminder of the need to pray for the unity of all Christian believers to “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism”.
As for the rest, I hope I didn't convey that I was thinking you were circular. Not at all.
I guess MY usage is that accurate is equivalent to "true" while "precise" is about we might call "exactitude". So by that usage a thing could be precise but inaccurate, and one reason we called it "inaccurate" MIGHT be that it attempted too great a degree of precision. For example: ".22 calibre" is accurately said to be 22/100s of an inch, but calling it, um 220000/1000000s of an inch might be inaccurate because the attempt at precision went too far and a bullet which was 219999/1000000s of an inch would often be found in a box of .22 longs. Also calling .22 calibre 38/hundredths of an inch would be inaccurate. Calling them both "less than 1/2 an inch" would be accurate, but not very precise.
I'm NOT saying I'm right here. I'm just trying to convey what I, possibly mistakenly, mean by the terms.
One reason I'm not perfectly (or precisely) confident in my use of the terms is that this summer I was a "special teacher" for a totally cool class of underprivileged but smart as whips kids doing science. My contribution was to shoot up my falling apart American Heritage Dictionary, the one with the picture of Marilyn Monroe as the illustration for decolletage -- it broke my heart when it started falling apart. It was quite dramatic, even though I had to shoot it up at home, because guns aren't allowed on the university campus in case someone might save a life with them.
I shot 4 Full Metal Jacket and 4 Hollow Points - the ones I used as a deputy. The FMJs ALL went through and through, while the HPs all failed to penetrate the entire dictionary but sho' tore up what they DID penetrate.
We also did the math to show a fast ball packs more energy than my .357 Sig rounds do.
ANyway .... the teacher seemed to go with your usage rather than mine. SO what do I know?
Pray for the unity of all believers in Christ so that the Church and truly be “one”.
That's a miracle if you like.
Look upon it as an attempt to cut down on some misunderstandings created by generalizations about "Protestants".
So far in this thread I've read that not only don't we disbelieve in the real presence, but we refuse the Eucharist. We have female ministers, we don't believe in the Trinity (since we claim descent from Arians & it seems we have Luther to thank for that), we all seem to teach that artificial birth control is okie dokey, our understanding about the catholic church is wrong & confoozled, seems we do not understand the difference between truth and the expression of truth, between accuracy and precision, we do not understand the notion of context . .
Back in post #18, Campion wrote: I have a suggestion. Why don't you let us describe our own beliefs, instead of trying to tell us what we believe (and getting it wrong).
We're told what we believe all of the time & here it began with the article that began this thread.
THAT’s a big 10-4.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.