Posted on 01/05/2008 7:06:01 AM PST by NYer
WIMAUMA - Father Demetrio Lorden walks into the garage of a concrete block house, slips on his robe and vestments, and unpacks a gold chalice.
He tests a microphone, and as dogs howl nearby, a small group of Hispanic workers and their families launches into a discordant song of praise.
Lorden calls this his "evangelism Mass," the one he has every Monday night in houses and mobile home camps of the Wimauma immigrant community.
Like other Catholic priests with Hispanic members, Lorden is trying to fend off competitors for the parishioners in his pews.
Protestant evangelists - people just as dedicated as he is, but with a quite different approach to Christianity - are aggressively recruiting on his turf. Some target workers as they labor in the fields; others approach them in their homes or at local bodegas, grocery stores.
Catholic priests like Lorden are responding with outreach and Bible studies, hoping to hold on to this large and growing population.
"Hispanic immigrants need to know someone is there caring for them," said Lorden, pastor of Our Lady of Guadalupe church. "But one of the things that pushed me to do that fervently and constantly was because ... other churches and denominations are visiting them and proselytizing them."
Sometimes Lorden's home-based Masses are the only contact workers have with the Catholic church, said Alejandro Lopez, 34, a construction worker who attended Lorden's service on a recent Monday night.
For those who can't make Sunday Mass because of work, Lorden's service helps sustain their faith, especially during hard times, Lopez said.
"It makes you feel better," he said.
The majority of Hispanics in the United States, or 68 percent, still call themselves Catholics. Of those who leave the Catholic church, most become Pentecostal or evangelical Christians or they leave religion all together, according to a national study released this year by the Pew Hispanic Center.
Some Catholic priests acknowledge that Protestant sects like the Pentecostals have responded faster and more aggressively to immigrants with aid and tight-knit worship circles in Spanish.
On a recent Saturday afternoon, the Rev. Jose Luis Correa, a Pentecostal pastor in Dover, handed out pamphlets with some church members as they walked through the parking lots of small Hispanic grocery stores or food stores with Hispanic patrons.
Then, they visited a mobile home park nestled between strawberry fields and railroad tracks. Many residents did not answer the door or weren't home. Others politely took the pamphlets and said they would come to church.
Sometimes, Correa said, he approaches them in the fields with water. Often he brings them clothes and food.
"We tell them we believe God will provide for their needs," said Correa, of Assembly of God or Templo Cristiano. "You're not going to reach them by being on a pulpit or sitting in an office."
Correa tackles their personal problems: marital disputes, alcoholism - a service sometimes lacking in the Catholic church.
For some immigrants like Edin Gonzalez, a 25-year-old Guatemalan carpenter who left most of his family behind, the church has become an instant community.
"It's like my second home. It's my family," he said.
* * *
When Hispanic converts from the Catholic church join Protestant sects, they let go of their attachment to the saints, religious images and Mary, the mother of Jesus, Correa said.
"We don't worship idols," he said.
Catholic priests bristle at the accusation and say Protestant evangelizers are tearing Hispanics away from their culture and faith.
"There's almost like a whole campaign to bring down the blessed Mother like she's the anti-Christ," said Father Carlos Rojas of St. Clement Catholic Church in Plant City.
Rojas, of Puerto Rican decent, said Hispanic Catholics, particularly Mexican Catholics, are very devoted to Mary.
They believe Mary, known as Our Lady of Guadalupe, appeared to a Mexican Indian peasant named Juan Diego in 1531. Juan Diego's story contributed greatly to Catholicism's spread in Mexico.
Recently, in a mix of religion and culture, St. Clement held a three-day festival and a two-day vigil to mark the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe that included Aztec dancers, mariachi bands and statues of the Virgin Mary.
The festival, which took place at the Plant City Stadium, drew 3,000 people, the first time it was held on such a large scale.
And it was yet another effort to cement the Catholic church's historical presence in the Hispanic community.
St. Clement, like other Catholic churches, started a Bible study for its Hispanic members in part to counter Protestant evangelizers, shifting from a tradition that left Bible readings and interpretations to priests.
"When you are entering into dialogue with other religions and people who are attacking the Catholic church, there is a need to have Bible studies," Rojas said. "If you are asked this question, here is a way you can respond."
Juan Gomez, pastor of the Church of God, a Protestant church in Wimauma, said his members don't attack Catholics. They just worship differently.
"We believe that (Mary) was a beautiful woman of God, but in terms of redemption, Christ is the one in terms of intercession, Christ is the interceder, not Mary, as they believe," said Gomez, who converted from Catholicism to the Church of God at 15 after immigrating to Ruskin from Mexico.
Gomez said he questions the Juan Diego story and the Catholic blending of religion with Hispanic culture.
But ultimately, newcomers aren't forced to stay in his church. If they don't like the spirited form of worship and Bible study, they go elsewhere.
"We try to bring people to a deeper relationship with Christ," he said. "It will always be up to the people."
Saundra Amrhein can be reached at amrhein@sptimes.com or (813) 661-2441.
Clear differences between the two
The battle for Hispanic faithful continues to brew between Catholics and Protestants, with both sides increasingly stepping up their recruitment efforts. Among the Protestant denominations, the Pentecostals have been particularly aggressive. Here are some major differences between Catholics and Protestants.
| PROTESTANTS vsCATHOLICS Believe the sacrament, or communion, is symbolic. Believe the sacrament istransformed into the body and blood of Christ. Have no supreme hierarchy such as a pope. Believe in the infallibility of the pope. Many churches, particularly Pentecostals, embrace aspirited worship style. Embrace a liturgical worship style. Allow women to pastor and become bishops. Allow only men to become priests and bishops. See no need for a priest to serve as a mediator between them and God. Revere Mary and the saints and ask them for intercession. Require confession before a priest. |
Source: Roman Catholic Diocese of St. Petersburg
That is a very important observation. It says volumes about the the nature of God vs. the nature of Man. The mere fact that we are able to theorize about perfection, despite our inability to achieve it, is amazing to me.
The word "round", in the way I used it has a certain range. It is an imprecise term that can be an accurate description of some kinds of objects, if indeed those objects are round.
This is a circular statement; unfortunately, it just begs the question.
Let's use something even closer to an actual sphere, a ball bearing manufactured in space. To the human eye it looks like a sphere. To human hands, using any standard measuring tools we have, it seems to be a sphere.
These tools themselves have a degree of imprecision in their measurements. So we only know that this ball bearing approximates a sphere to within the tolerance of the measuring tools (in fact, the boundaries of this tolerance themselves are somewhat ambiguous).
All types of measurements come with a standard deviation, which will be described by a range. Precision is determined by the stringency of that standard, while accuracy is a relational term, like thin or round.
Not only are we using the word "precision" differently, but it also seems we're using the word "accuracy" differently. For an example of how I use the words in an empirical sense, see post 91.
Something could be described accurately without precision, but you wouldn't be able to determine how accurate that description is without something to compare it to. The more precise the thing it's being compared to is, the more you're able to determine accuracy.
That's why I'm saying that accuracy is meaningless without precision.
The term that I used in my first response in this particular tangent of this thread (slide fit) is also an expression of a range.
OK, let's go back to your slide fit:
A slide fit allows for movement. Picture a hinge. The pin & the dealybobs that move around it would have a slide fit. The term is used for some kinds of bearings.
Yes, there is a range involved. But the point I'm trying to make is that the range itself is precisely defined.
No, thank YOU and GL for indulging me in this tangent. As I said before, I've been trying to apply an empirical understanding of the words to philosophy, so I've basically been flying by the seat of pants, and I don't know how successful I've been. Thank you for helping me to flesh out this idea. Anyway, I think the analogy might be this: In science, it is meaningless to say that measurements are accurate if they are all over the place (i.e. imprecise); in logic, it is meaningless to say that a statement is accurate if it is not defined precisely. In both cases, there are ideals for both accuracy and precision, but the ideal of accuracy cannot be attained without also attaining the ideal of precision. Also, the further one deviates from the ideal of presision, the further one deviates from the ideal of accuracy.
speaking well is more than a matter of articulating clearly
Something I have enough trouble with as it is. ;)
I think that's one of the major sources of misunderstanding on the Religion Forum, and between different denominations or even religions in general: People use the same words to mean diffent things.
“empty edifices”
You go to Frederick, Maryland, to the Visitation Monastery. Spend a few moments in the sitting room calming yourself, praying, and getting in a contemplative frame of mind.
Then walk into the Chapel.
If at that moment you think you are in an “empty edifice,” ya ain’t got a spiritual bone in yer body.
And I htink the virtue of The Trivium - the "three ways" of grammar logic, and rhetoric, is that they address directly this problem.
So after all this study I managed to become completely incomprehensible! Who says collitch is a waste of time?
Fascinating! Would you mind telling me your church affiliation and/or your teacher or possibly a link on the Internet? I had never before heard this philosophy except from friends with a Buddhist or Hindu background. I would like to learn more about your belief.
***
I had never before heard this philosophy except from friends with a Buddhist or Hindu background.
This spiritual/physical dualism is also found in certain "Christian" heresies such as Gnosticism. Given that God saw that His creation was good, and that Jesus Christ has a physical body, this dualism is not a Christian concept.
simply an impermanent ego projection/effect.
This "projection" concept is interesting, though, and C.S. Lewis discussed something like it when he called this world the "Shadowlands". However, I don't think he ever denied the reality of the physical. I believe that Lewis found this "projection" concept in Plato's writings, but that's something that's still on my much-too-long reading list. At any rate, Lewis echoes the Apostle Paul who writes:
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Corinthians 13:12)
One question to ask here is, "Did Jesus 'really' suffer?"
The answers of course, lead to further questions.
This did not, of course, deny or negate the goodness and realness of bodily life on this earth (or in Narnia): it was just deeper, wilder, better.
Just as we Christians do not believe we shall experience an eternal disembodied life as some gaseous being, Casper the Friendly Ghost or whatever: we believe in the Resurrection of the Body.
The Muslims, I think, say that Jesus did not really suffer and die on the cross, but it was just some sort of appearance or illusion. They believe neither in the Incarnation nor the Passion.
It’s called Docetism I believe. He Looked like He was suffering. On the kindergarten level the problem is that then we have God (or the Prophet) intentionally giving a false impression.
Here's some food for thought, from +John Chrysostom's Homily on "Father, if it be possible...":
But these proofs alone did not suffice, but even when He had come, lest what had taken place should be deemed an illusion, He warranted the fact not only by the sight but by duration of time and by passing through all the phases incident to man. For He did not enter once for all into a man matured and completely developed, but into a virgin's womb, so as to undergo the process of gestation and birth and suckling and growth, and by the length of the time and the variety of the stages of growth to give assurance of what had come to pass. And not even here were the proofs concluded, but even when bearing about the body of flesh He suffered it to experience the infirmities of human nature and to be hungry, and thirsty, and to sleep and feel fatigue; finally also when He came to the cross He suffered it to undergo the pains of the flesh. For this reason also streams of sweat flowed down from it and an angel was discovered strengthening it, and He was sad and down-cast: for before He uttered these words He said "my soul is troubled, and exceeding sorrowful ever unto death." Matthew 26:38 If then after all these things have taken place the wicked mouth of the devil speaking through Marcion of Pontus, and Valentinus, and Manichæus of Persia and many more heretics, has attempted to overthrow the doctrine of the Incarnation and has vented a diabolical utterance declaring that He did not become flesh, nor was clothed with it, but that this was mere fancy, and illusion, a piece of acting and pretence, although the sufferings, the death, the burial, the thirst, cry aloud against this teaching; supposing that none of these things had happened would not the devil have sown these wicked doctrines of impiousness much more widely? For this reason, just as He hungered, as He slept, as He felt fatigue, as He ate and drank, so also did He deprecate death, thereby manifesting his humanity, and that infirmity of human nature which does not submit without pain to be torn from this present life. For had He not uttered any of these things, it might have been said that if He were a man He ought to have experienced human feelings. And what are these? in the case of one about to be crucified, fear and agony, and pain in being torn from present life: for a sense of the charm which surrounds present things is implanted in human nature: on this account wishing to prove the reality of the fleshly clothing, and to give assurance of the incarnation He manifests the actual feelings of man with full demonstration.
LOL, that's college in a nutshell! :)
Or Christian Scientist? Or Anthroposophist?
(hint: HECK No!)
Seriously, Golden mouth indeed!
Seriously, Golden mouth indeed!
No kidding!
On +John we share.
It's possible to do that here at a keyboard; behind the wheel of a car stuck in traffic as well; it's always available to us if we allow it.
I’m still looking for the useful reference here.
Last night I watched a rerun of an episode of “Psych”. Two characters were at a shooting range. The first character shot a bunch of rounds at a target. She was going to get out a new target for the other character, but he chose to use the same target she’d used. He quickly shot the same number of rounds that she’d used. Upon inspection, he’d made each of the holes that she’d made into a “doubled” hole.
Her shots determined the precision of the shooting session. It could be said that her shots defined a range. If both shooters had been “perfect”, there would be exactly one hole in the target & it would be the size that the largest bullet had made.
The accuracy of his shooting was determined by the distance between the centers of each of the holes that he’d “duplicated” with all of his shots.
How did her precision (or lack of precision) affect his accuracy?
In answer to that I have to ask another question? Why would he want to? Why would the Son of God want to further the physical ego illusion of the body thru an example of suffering? Why would Jesus want to set such an example for his students?
To demonstrate Love?
To lock mankind into an illusion?
I believe that the answer is he didn't and that this emphasis was added after his "death" and "resurrection" by followers as opposed to students. I believe that's the real meaning of the cruxcifiction the body can be left behind while the spirit continues; this is when we enter into the body of Christ.
I agree & most of us speak a common language. Throw words of different languages into the mix, where a translation can only approximate an idea, discovery of common references gets even trickier.
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