Posted on 01/05/2008 7:06:01 AM PST by NYer
WIMAUMA - Father Demetrio Lorden walks into the garage of a concrete block house, slips on his robe and vestments, and unpacks a gold chalice.
He tests a microphone, and as dogs howl nearby, a small group of Hispanic workers and their families launches into a discordant song of praise.
Lorden calls this his "evangelism Mass," the one he has every Monday night in houses and mobile home camps of the Wimauma immigrant community.
Like other Catholic priests with Hispanic members, Lorden is trying to fend off competitors for the parishioners in his pews.
Protestant evangelists - people just as dedicated as he is, but with a quite different approach to Christianity - are aggressively recruiting on his turf. Some target workers as they labor in the fields; others approach them in their homes or at local bodegas, grocery stores.
Catholic priests like Lorden are responding with outreach and Bible studies, hoping to hold on to this large and growing population.
"Hispanic immigrants need to know someone is there caring for them," said Lorden, pastor of Our Lady of Guadalupe church. "But one of the things that pushed me to do that fervently and constantly was because ... other churches and denominations are visiting them and proselytizing them."
Sometimes Lorden's home-based Masses are the only contact workers have with the Catholic church, said Alejandro Lopez, 34, a construction worker who attended Lorden's service on a recent Monday night.
For those who can't make Sunday Mass because of work, Lorden's service helps sustain their faith, especially during hard times, Lopez said.
"It makes you feel better," he said.
The majority of Hispanics in the United States, or 68 percent, still call themselves Catholics. Of those who leave the Catholic church, most become Pentecostal or evangelical Christians or they leave religion all together, according to a national study released this year by the Pew Hispanic Center.
Some Catholic priests acknowledge that Protestant sects like the Pentecostals have responded faster and more aggressively to immigrants with aid and tight-knit worship circles in Spanish.
On a recent Saturday afternoon, the Rev. Jose Luis Correa, a Pentecostal pastor in Dover, handed out pamphlets with some church members as they walked through the parking lots of small Hispanic grocery stores or food stores with Hispanic patrons.
Then, they visited a mobile home park nestled between strawberry fields and railroad tracks. Many residents did not answer the door or weren't home. Others politely took the pamphlets and said they would come to church.
Sometimes, Correa said, he approaches them in the fields with water. Often he brings them clothes and food.
"We tell them we believe God will provide for their needs," said Correa, of Assembly of God or Templo Cristiano. "You're not going to reach them by being on a pulpit or sitting in an office."
Correa tackles their personal problems: marital disputes, alcoholism - a service sometimes lacking in the Catholic church.
For some immigrants like Edin Gonzalez, a 25-year-old Guatemalan carpenter who left most of his family behind, the church has become an instant community.
"It's like my second home. It's my family," he said.
* * *
When Hispanic converts from the Catholic church join Protestant sects, they let go of their attachment to the saints, religious images and Mary, the mother of Jesus, Correa said.
"We don't worship idols," he said.
Catholic priests bristle at the accusation and say Protestant evangelizers are tearing Hispanics away from their culture and faith.
"There's almost like a whole campaign to bring down the blessed Mother like she's the anti-Christ," said Father Carlos Rojas of St. Clement Catholic Church in Plant City.
Rojas, of Puerto Rican decent, said Hispanic Catholics, particularly Mexican Catholics, are very devoted to Mary.
They believe Mary, known as Our Lady of Guadalupe, appeared to a Mexican Indian peasant named Juan Diego in 1531. Juan Diego's story contributed greatly to Catholicism's spread in Mexico.
Recently, in a mix of religion and culture, St. Clement held a three-day festival and a two-day vigil to mark the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe that included Aztec dancers, mariachi bands and statues of the Virgin Mary.
The festival, which took place at the Plant City Stadium, drew 3,000 people, the first time it was held on such a large scale.
And it was yet another effort to cement the Catholic church's historical presence in the Hispanic community.
St. Clement, like other Catholic churches, started a Bible study for its Hispanic members in part to counter Protestant evangelizers, shifting from a tradition that left Bible readings and interpretations to priests.
"When you are entering into dialogue with other religions and people who are attacking the Catholic church, there is a need to have Bible studies," Rojas said. "If you are asked this question, here is a way you can respond."
Juan Gomez, pastor of the Church of God, a Protestant church in Wimauma, said his members don't attack Catholics. They just worship differently.
"We believe that (Mary) was a beautiful woman of God, but in terms of redemption, Christ is the one in terms of intercession, Christ is the interceder, not Mary, as they believe," said Gomez, who converted from Catholicism to the Church of God at 15 after immigrating to Ruskin from Mexico.
Gomez said he questions the Juan Diego story and the Catholic blending of religion with Hispanic culture.
But ultimately, newcomers aren't forced to stay in his church. If they don't like the spirited form of worship and Bible study, they go elsewhere.
"We try to bring people to a deeper relationship with Christ," he said. "It will always be up to the people."
Saundra Amrhein can be reached at amrhein@sptimes.com or (813) 661-2441.
Clear differences between the two
The battle for Hispanic faithful continues to brew between Catholics and Protestants, with both sides increasingly stepping up their recruitment efforts. Among the Protestant denominations, the Pentecostals have been particularly aggressive. Here are some major differences between Catholics and Protestants.
| PROTESTANTS vsCATHOLICS Believe the sacrament, or communion, is symbolic. Believe the sacrament istransformed into the body and blood of Christ. Have no supreme hierarchy such as a pope. Believe in the infallibility of the pope. Many churches, particularly Pentecostals, embrace aspirited worship style. Embrace a liturgical worship style. Allow women to pastor and become bishops. Allow only men to become priests and bishops. See no need for a priest to serve as a mediator between them and God. Revere Mary and the saints and ask them for intercession. Require confession before a priest. |
Source: Roman Catholic Diocese of St. Petersburg
That’s what I figured.
Something doesn't have to be literally true to be true. Similes, metaphors, personifications & the like are forms of expression. I could have left out the comparison. If I had just said, "the woman is thin", it could have been an accurate statement, yet it would be one that lacks precision.
That sounds eerily postmodern. I already left my cradle denomination because the prevailing opinion now is that things like the virgin birth, miracles, and the resurrection aren't literally true, but they're metaphors so they can still say the Creed without crossing their fingers.
Similes, metaphors, personifications & the like are forms of expression.
And they are just that. But don't get me wrong; that is not to say they are lies. There is no intent to deceive, and if everyone is on the same page then they can add beauty and poetry to our discourse. In fact, there are cases when a metaphor might express something deeper, more than what is said with words, and in these cases it may appropriately be called a symbol.
If I had just said, "the woman is thin", it could have been an accurate statement, yet it would be one that lacks precision.
It would not be accurate without a "precise" (i.e. lacking ambiguity) definition of "thin"; otherwise it is a relative statement. For instance, a 300-pound woman might see a 200-pound woman as thin, but a 100-pound woman probably wouldn't.
At this point I should point out that you might be correct if you're taking "precise" to mean something else, which is perfectly valid given that the word has more than one meaning. However, words having multiple meanings can make discourse confusing at times, and is the source of much misunderstanding. This is why, in fields such as mathematics where "precision" (i.e. a lack of ambiguity) is essential, giving words multiple meanings is generally frowned upon.
Every other one. Remember the Eemo "Die, heretic, die!" joke?
I was quite surprised to see her shopping on Sunday - I grew up Southern Baptist and we just DID NOT DO that. 'Course, in Virginia we really couldn't - nothing was open. I'm sorry that changed, really, and I try to patronize businesses during the week that do still close on Sundays.
The big problem with articles such as this is that Protestant is all lumped together. For the most part I have no problem with Non Catholic christian churches. But I think it is wrong to treat the Evangelical non denominational church which takes to heart the mission of the Gospel with the Name It and Claim It crowd.
Both may appear the same but they are extremely different in their goals, practices and mission.
Yes, I suppose it does. My problem is coming up with a good example. If I say the ball is round, could it be true? Without getting into all of the particulars of tolerances, which would be necessary to determine the precision of my statement, could my statement be true?
I already left my cradle denomination because the prevailing opinion now is that things like the virgin birth, miracles, and the resurrection aren't literally true, but they're metaphors so they can still say the Creed without crossing their fingers.
I left the church of my childhood for other reasons. After I left they joined the ELCA. I can relate. That isn't what I was talking about.
I said, "Similes, metaphors, personifications & the like are forms of expression."
And they are just that. But don't get me wrong; that is not to say they are lies. There is no intent to deceive, and if everyone is on the same page then they can add beauty and poetry to our discourse. In fact, there are cases when a metaphor might express something deeper, more than what is said with words, and in these cases it may appropriately be called a symbol.
I agree.
It would not be accurate without a "precise" (i.e. lacking ambiguity) definition of "thin"; otherwise it is a relative statement. For instance, a 300-pound woman might see a 200-pound woman as thin, but a 100-pound woman probably wouldn't.
Those weights you just gave me are also relative, not precise. Were they all weighed on a scale that's on Earth?
At this point I should point out that you might be correct if you're taking "precise" to mean something else, which is perfectly valid given that the word has more than one meaning. However, words having multiple meanings can make discourse confusing at times, and is the source of much misunderstanding. This is why, in fields such as mathematics where "precision" (i.e. a lack of ambiguity) is essential, giving words multiple meanings is generally frowned upon.
Right, but then you get into words like "acute" & "obtuse", which describe some things within ranges... accurate, true descriptions, tho not precise.
And no doubt you can provide historical references for this.
I suppose, cuz every other one might have a thing or two to say about the sash. LOL
Remember the Eemo "Die, heretic, die!" joke?
Eemo? Stange thin guy, that for some reason brings to mind Pee Wee Herman to me. Erm, no, I don't think I remember that joke.
I was quite surprised to see her shopping on Sunday - I grew up Southern Baptist and we just DID NOT DO that.
I'm old enough to remember when stores weren't open on Sundays *in Wisconsin*. Bars were open, but the stores weren't. Since you were raised a Southern Baptist, you probably wouldn't know that sort of thing, cept maybe in thinking about the poor lost souls who'd be sitting in a gin mill any day of the week, much less on the Lord's Day, heaven forbid.
'Course, in Virginia we really couldn't - nothing was open. I'm sorry that changed, really, and I try to patronize businesses during the week that do still close on Sundays.
I'm thankful for stores that are open 24/7. Back when my sons were little, I'd go shopping at 2 AM, cuz I could go by myself.
“That’s a miracle if you like.”
That’s a miracle even if I don’t like.
Sorry, I was just trying to give some background on why red flags start waving in my head whenever I see statements like: "Something doesn't have to be literally true to be true."
Those weights you just gave me are also relative, not precise. Were they all weighed on a scale that's on Earth?
Good catch! In fact, it would be better to compare mass instead of weight. However, I was merely giving an illustration (however imprecise!) and it was not meant to be taken as an argument itself. Anyway, on to the fun stuff:
If I say the ball is round, could it be true? Without getting into all of the particulars of tolerances, which would be necessary to determine the precision of my statement, could my statement be true?
What do mean by "round"? "Spherical", perhaps? We can look at a ball and see that it looks like a sphere, but if we examine it up close then we observe tiny bumps on the surface; so we conclude that the ball is really not a sphere, even though it approximates one very closely. So perhaps our definition of "round" could include "almost spherical" as well. But "almost spherical" is very vague: When does something resemble a sphere closely enough for us to call it "almost spherical"? Perhaps one person might say, "Yes, that looks like a sphere," and another might say, "No, that looks nothing like a sphere!" So even though they can agree on what a "sphere" is (since we have a precise definition), they may disagree on what makes something "almost spherical". This is what I mean by "precision" as a "lack of ambiguity". Since "almost spherical" is ambiguous (unless we define it precisely, and this is possible using tolerances like you mentioned), we cannot say for certain whether something is "almost spherical" or not. The bright side is that most people would agree that something like a ball is "almost spherical", so even though this isn't an objective criterion, a statement like "The ball is round" would be understood by nearly everyone.
words like "acute" & "obtuse", which describe some things within ranges... accurate, true descriptions, tho not precise.
However, keeping in mind what I wrote above, the terms "acute" and "obtuse" are precisely defined, i.e. there is no ambiguity in their definitions. So for example, if I were to tell you that an angle is acute, then you wouldn't know whether it is 20 degrees or 45 degrees or whatever, but you would know absolutely that it is greater than 0 degrees and less than 90 degrees.
And there I go being imprecise again. By "ball" I mean something like a basketball and not a football (precisely, an American football, not a soccer ball). See, it's tricky! :)
You're serious?
As was I, when I used the rail thin woman as an example.
I said, "If I say the ball is round, could it be true?" Without getting into all of the particulars of tolerances, which would be necessary to determine the precision of my statement, could my statement be true?
What do mean by "round"?
I considered discussing spheres, as you did, but instead raised the issue of tolerances without getting into them. Only God can make a perfect sphere. Men can theorize them, but can not make one. Man can, as best, come close.
I also considered talking about the colour of the ball, which took me into frequency of the colour & the lighting in which the colour is being seen in.
The word "round", in the way I used it has a certain range. It is an imprecise term that can be an accurate description of some kinds of objects, if indeed those objects are round. You wouldn't expect someone with a round face or a round belly to have a face or belly which is spherically shaped. A piece of furniture can be said to have round corners or edges. (there's an oxymoron for you) Range of "round" is determined by the kind of object it is being used to describe. Like the word "thin", it is a comparative word.
We can look at a ball and see that it looks like a sphere, but if we examine it up close then we observe tiny bumps on the surface; so we conclude that the ball is really not a sphere, even though it approximates one very closely.
Let's use something even closer to an actual sphere, a ball bearing manufactured in space. To the human eye it looks like a sphere. To human hands, using any standard measuring tools we have, it seems to be a sphere.
You mentioned tiny bumps on the surface & again, I have to ask what tolerance you're using. Now we're pulling out another group of measuring tools. If we find a single atom out of place, we're not dealing with a sphere. We're dealing with something which is round and it approximates a sphere.
Back to the statement that started this discussion, "A statement can be precise without being accurate, but it cannot truly be accurate without being precise."
All types of measurements come with a standard deviation, which will be described by a range. Precision is determined by the stringency of that standard, while accuracy is a relational term, like thin or round. Something could be described accurately without precision, but you wouldn't be able to determine how accurate that description is without something to compare it to. The more precise the thing it's being compared to is, the more you're able to determine accuracy.
Your statement requires one to fill in a variable with a value, even if the value is unknown.
However, keeping in mind what I wrote above, the terms "acute" and "obtuse" are precisely defined, i.e. there is no ambiguity in their definitions. So for example, if I were to tell you that an angle is acute, then you wouldn't know whether it is 20 degrees or 45 degrees or whatever, but you would know absolutely that it is greater than 0 degrees and less than 90 degrees.
The known value is a range. The term that I used in my first response in this particular tangent of this thread (slide fit) is also an expression of a range.
Y’all, thanks for keeping this going.
The reason in the old days people studied Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric is that speaking well is more than a matter of articulating clearly, huh?
Yes, because communicating requires determination of common references. without common references, it's easy to end up talking past each other.
Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew. The church that followed was founded by His sucessors.
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock >b>I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Correct. I just happen to believe His church was of a spiritual nature and his teaching were designed to enable his students to achieve spiritual enlightenment in the real world rather than empty edifices in the impermanent.
His Church is spiritual and physical. Just like His body.
The spiritual is real the physical is unreal.....simply an impermanent ego projection/effect.
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