HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES [Mary, Mother of God]

The Rock ^ | May 1994 | Mark Shea

[Salvation]

HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES

By MARK P. SHEA

 

Some friends are always good for a cheery disagreement--like my pal Bill. Here he is, a guy who modestly describes himself as "The Last Bastion of the Reformation," a guy who sings "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" in the shower, a guy who keeps ribbing me about being Catholic when he knows that I can scarcely resist the challenge to respond. Consider the letter I got the other day, written with Bill's usual joie de vivre, in which he urged me to get a recent book devoted to "critiquing" Marian devotion from an Evangelical perspective.

As a former Evangelical, I know anti-Marian arguments. But, having been a Catholic for nearly six years, I've been surprised to discover how much larger Mary looms in many Protestant minds than in Catholic ones. Maybe I'm languishing in a papally-induced spiritual blindness, but Jesus seems as big to me as ever. Only Mary has changed sizes since I "poped." She got a lot smaller and less threatening.

Since I became a Catholic she often, after directing me to her Son, has seemed to slip out of the room for long stretches, leaving me to talk with him while she busies herself with quietly praying for me or doing some other motherly task. She has been a most unobtrusive presence--endlessly loving and interceding, but not nearly as noisy about it as my Protestant upbringing would have led me to believe.

Yet how can this be? Books have "proven" that Catholics are obsessively fixated on our Lady to the exclusion of faith in Christ. They have shown that all we think about is the way in which Mary can save us from sin. They have demonstrated that I spend day and night obsequiously seeking to have her declared a fourth member of the Trinity.

Of course, there are benighted souls in my communion (Mother Teresa, say) whose summary of Marian devotion is: Love Jesus as Mary loves Jesus, love Mary as Jesus loves Mary. Such people seem to think that Mary is not a goddess but that she has a significant place in the drama of redemption. They regard her as remarkable in that her choice to love and obey the as-yet-unseen and unincarnate Messiah was the very key to the Incarnation.

They find a subtle difference between such faith (unbuttressed and unrehearsed) and the wobbly performance of Peter and Thomas. They attach some quirky meaning to the fact she was the first disciple to say "yes" to the incarnate God and that it was this "yes" and the love it expressed which was the basis of the first and deepest love relationship the Son of God ever experienced as man.

Such cultists seem to have this notion that her role in the life of the Church might extend beyond the physical fact of providing a uterine environment and three square meals a day to the Second Person of the Trinity--that she is something more than a disposable first stage in the Incarnation.

For some reason they hold the belief that Jesus, who obeyed the law perfectly, obeyed the command to love his mother in a way unique in human history and that imitating him might involve us in that love relationship too. They are bewitched with the fact the dying Jesus commanded the disciple he loved (that is, you and me) to have Mary as mother and that she was commanded to have the beloved disciple (that is, you and me) as her son.

These people suspect that as the risen Christ remains human forever, so he remains his mother's son forever. If she loves him, she just might love those who are in him as her own and pray they will love her son with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. Likewise, if Jesus loves her in a unique way and we are to be like him . . . well, you can work that one out.

 

 

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Why proof-texting is tricky:

"Proof-texting" is simply proving from the text. Not a problem. The Bible does not contradict itself. The word of God is perfect; it's men's understanding that is imperfect, and so we study the Scriptures to "rightly divid(e) the word of God."

Thus, John is crystal clear, for those with ears to hear.

All men sin and will continue to sin until they die. We are not God and we are not yet perfect, from a temporal perspective.

But if a man is a member of God's family, ordained by God to be among Christ's flock from before the foundation of the world, according to the will and purpose of God, then that man's sins have been forgiven by God through Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Entirely. Completely.

And as such, that man's life will be led by the Holy Spirit in sanctifying grace so that that man will sin less and less each day. Mercifully, that man will have come to know the grace of God by the work of the Holy Spirit, and will thus desire God's goodness and loath his own sin.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." -- John 3:18

[1000 silverlings]

1 Corinthians 2:

2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[Mad Dawg]

Interesting to note, among all the complaints, that the painter, Holman-Hunt, was not Catholic (or Orthodox).

[papertyger]

The "word of God" is the Holy Bible...

Verses please?

Why would anyone go looking elsewhere when all truth for leading a profitable, God-fearing life is contained in God's word?

Because the "Bible" is frozen. The Word of God is not frozen. The Bible can not change to meet new challenges.

And finally, because the Christianity offered to me by "bible christians" did not deliver on the promises of the Bible for me. I could only conclude something was missing. That something is no longer missing.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

But I thought "If someone simply returns to the Bible and reads it, he or she will find on every page...etc?"

LOL. You mean my "cheesy cliche?"

The Bible has been given to every man on earth. The Holy Spirit's illumination is given to those whom God has numbered among His family from before the foundation of the world.

The very desire to read the Bible and learn about Christ's sacrifice is solid evidence that the Holy Spirit is moving that person toward the truth. But in the end, it is God who justifies the ungodly. If a person reads the Bible and is given the understanding that his sins have been paid for by Christ on the cross, then praise God, we can be as confident as possible that that person is among Christ's flock.

If a person reads the Bible and instead finds uncertainty and idolatry and doctrines of men and fables and lies and old wives tales and superstitions and other names in heaven that purportedly save us besides Jesus Christ, then it's pretty obvious that person either is not among Christ's flock or still has a long way to go before he comes to the truth.

Either way, it's God's call, completely.

Pray for the shortest path.

[papertyger]

You're just feeling the wearying, noxious effects of an old Jesuit tactic -- simply ask short, concise questions...etc.

And my next trick will the old capitalist tactic of giving the customer what they want, followed by the dental tactic of flossing daily...

Ultimately, however, such ploys end up sharpening our Scriptural knowledge as well as pointing out the paucity of our opponent's argument, such as it isn't.

I don't think being set free from slavery to sin makes for a fruitful "argument."

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"...the words that I speak are spirit and life..."

AMEN! Let all those with ears to hear rejoice!

"The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.

Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear: though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident.

One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.

For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD." -- Psalm 27:1-6

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Zechariah 7:12

Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

AMEN! Great verse.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It is well known Luther suffered from a pathology we call scrupulousness. It is a failure of trust in Christ.

lol. Who trusts in Christ? The man who thinks the sacrifice must be repeated in perpetuity, or the man who knows the one-time, perfect sacrifice has been offered and accepted by God in full?

Luther's closest friend, Philipp Melanchthon, wrote to him and asked how to answer the charge that the reformers neglected pilgrimages, fasts and other traditional forms of piety. Luther replied:

"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign." -- Martin Luther [Letter 99.13, To Philipp Melanchthon, 1 August 1521.]

[Dr. Eckleburg]

AMEN!

[wmfights]

Perhaps "who" rather than "what" would be more appropriate. How about "He" who was born according to the scriptures, and died according to the scriptures, and was raised according to the scriptures... that person who no one in the church would know the truth about had it not been for the scriptures.

WOW! What a great response. I wish I had thought of it.

FWIW, to add to the discussion about how do you know Scripture is true. Scripture was Scripture whether it was recognized as such by men.

Our Saviour Jesus clearly established once and for all what the OT consists of in Luke 24:44. I think we are all in agreement that what he says is the final word.

The NT was written during the Apostolic Era by the Apostles, those that traveled with the Apostles, or by Jesus's step brothers. All these books are consistent with the OT and a great many were recognized by other Apostles as Scripture. For example Paul's writings are recognized as Scripture by Peter in IIPeter 3: 15-16, or when Paul recognized Luke's writings as being Scripture in ITim. 5:18.

IOW, all the books of the NT were written during the Apostolic Era and they were recognized as Scripture during the Apostolic Era.

[Mad Dawg]

Look. It has come down to is, "We're right, and if you were of God, you'd know it, And since you don't know it, we know you're not of God."

This is the kind of thinking that ended up with Cranmer recanting and then, once he learned he was going to be toast anyway, recanting his recantation.

[1000 silverlings]

The bible is not "frozen". How can the mind of God be frozen? It is wisdom for all men of all time.

Ps 19:7

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple

Prov 30:5,6

30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Psalm 119:89

For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

It is totally sufficient for man's needs

2 Tim3:16,17

3:15

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It will accomplish what it promises

Isaiah 55:11

55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Lastly, it provides the assurance of our salvation:

John 88:47

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

[papertyger]

Bible-believing Christians know that God Himself has authenticated His word through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Exactly how was that accomplished? I know Bible-believing Christians that reject the Old Testament, and some that even restrict themselves to the "words in red."

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Because the "Bible" is frozen. The Word of God is not frozen. The Bible can not change to meet new challenges.

Goodness! I didn't know we were discussing theology with a modernist revisionist relativist. No wonder you have so little faith in the Bible if you think God's will and purpose change with the seasons.

[Alamo-Girl]

Praise God for the gift of "ears to hear."

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. - John 6:65

We know we are His own, we hear His words, they are alive in us.

Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. - Matt 13:18-23

The fruit is His:

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:5

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

And we have His blessed assurance: My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. – John 10:29

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. – 2 Tim 1:12

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Col 3:3

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. – Galatians 2:20-21

Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. – Philippians 4:7-8

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. – Psalms 23:4

Rejoice in the Lord alway: [and] again I say, Rejoice. - Phl 4:4

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The NT was written during the Apostolic Era by the Apostles, those that traveled with the Apostles, or by Jesus's step brothers. All these books are consistent with the OT and a great many were recognized by other Apostles as Scripture. For example Paul's writings are recognized as Scripture by Peter in IIPeter 3: 15-16, or when Paul recognized Luke's writings as being Scripture in ITim. 5:18.

IOW, all the books of the NT were written during the Apostolic Era and they were recognized as Scripture during the Apostolic Era.

Great point! But some would have us believe that "the Bible is frozen...and can not change to meet new challenges." lol.

[wmfights]

Because the "Bible" is frozen.

I'm just catching up, but what does this mean?

BTW, how do you know Scripture is Scripture?

[papertyger]

LOL. You mean my "cheesy cliche?" The Bible has been given to every man on earth. The Holy Spirit's illumination is given to those whom God has numbered among His family from before the foundation of the world. The very desire to read the Bible and learn about Christ's sacrifice is solid evidence that the Holy Spirit is moving that person toward the truth. But in the end, it is God who justifies the ungodly. If a person reads the Bible and is given the understanding that his sins have been paid for by Christ on the cross, then praise God, we can be as confident as possible that that person is among Christ's flock. If a person reads the Bible and instead finds uncertainty and idolatry and doctrines of men and fables and lies and old wives tales and superstitions and other names in heaven that purportedly save us besides Jesus Christ, then it's pretty obvious that person either is not among Christ's flock or still has a long way to go before he comes to the truth. Either way, it's God's call, completely. Pray for the shortest path.

None of which gets you off the hook for making contradictory statements.

[Mad Dawg]

Luke 24:44
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

No Ezra, Ecclesiastes, Nehemiah, Kings, or Chronicles? Sure, you could say that by "Psalms" our Lord meant the rest of the Kethubim (Writings) but you'd have to go outside Scripture to demonstrate that. So if we go by that text, the KJV has MORE in it than the "canon" IHS presented.

Your penultimate last paragraph mentions SOME of what later became the NT

a great many were recognized by other Apostles as Scripture.

but your last paragraph concludes

all the books of the NT were written during the Apostolic Era and they were recognized as Scripture during the Apostolic Era.

Where'd the "all" come from? Where does IHS say that only those books in that list constitute the OT Scriptures?

In conclusion, you have to reach outside of Scripture to show that you don't have to reach outside of Scripture.