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To: Greg F
Without God there is no rational basis for altruism.

Not at all. Altruism is a predictable result when dealing with species that live in tight social groups. In these situations genes favoring altruism spread rapidly because sacrifice on the part of one person carrying an altruistic gene in order to preserve several other people (most likely related and also carrying these altruistic genes) amplifies their frequency over that of selfish genes. For example, one altruistic man may sacrifice himself to save his three children, two of whom carry the same altruistic gene. On the other hand, another man without an altruistic gene would allow his children to be killed, thus leaving one selfish gene in the population while two altruistic genes are preserved. This is the process called kin selection, and this principle has been found to have predictive power in the behavior of organisms ranging from plants to people to insects.

Kin selection probably initially favored only offspring, and was so useful that it then extended to other kin. Humans now have such an instinct for compassion that we extend altruism to even members of other species.

That is why we feel like being altruistic, why I think we ought to is another reason. I think the basis for morality is every person's feeling about how they individually should be treated. Everyone believes he or she ought to be treated well. Then rationally we know that no person is inherently more valuable than another, so by extent we should treat others as we would like to be treated. I do not want others to steal from me and I am no more special than any other human, so I should also not want others to be victims of theft. That is the rational basis.

27 posted on 11/27/2007 1:23:06 PM PST by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
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To: ahayes

No rational basis exists. Your claim is that we are “programmed” to be altruistic. If that were the case we would not need moral education at all or ethics classes for athiests, we just need to follow our kind and sweet natures. We are biologically programmed to do good! The Christian view is in many respects antithetical to yours. We are by nature sinful and prone to act selfishly. We struggle to meet do God’s will, to love our brothers as ourselves and we fail; we need Christ’s forgiveness for our sins because we cannot do this on our own power.


31 posted on 11/27/2007 1:35:04 PM PST by Greg F (Duncan Hunter is a good man.)
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To: ahayes
I think the basis for morality is every person's feeling about how they individually should be treated. Everyone believes he or she ought to be treated well. Then rationally we know that no person is inherently more valuable than another, so by extent we should treat others as we would like to be treated. I do not want others to steal from me and I am no more special than any other human, so I should also not want others to be victims of theft. That is the rational basis.

Think it through in light of a person who would rather have what he can steal from you than subscribe to your notion of morality. You have no way to rationally persuade him he shouldn't . . . rational moral restraint without God is a gamble: it is probability of being caught * harshness of punishment if caught > benefit of committing the crime. Throw in your view of a sense of guilt being biologically determined and you get: probability of being caught * harshness of punishment if caught + discomfort of guilty feelings from committing the crime > benefit of committing the crime. It is not a rational basis for morality . . . it is a calculation of cost benefit with no moral component at all.

34 posted on 11/27/2007 1:42:41 PM PST by Greg F (Duncan Hunter is a good man.)
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To: ahayes
Altruism is a predictable result when dealing with species that live in tight social groups. You are using a scientific definition of altruism in a debate about moralistic behavior. If the motivation for an act benefits oneself, whether in the survival of one's genes, one's family, one's clan, one's tribe or one's species it is not an act of altruism in the moralistic sense of the word.
82 posted on 11/28/2007 6:51:11 AM PST by Between the Lines (I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations.)
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